Chevy Volt Tested: Goes 40 Miles, No Gas Expended

[AK-74me]

Any idea how much your electric bill will increase, the amount of pollution from coal fired plants will increase?

Good idea, but we aren't really solving a problem, as much as moving a problem to a different market. No more inner city pollution, but the urban areas where the power plants are will now be covered with a blanket of smog. Save money on gas, but your electric bill goes up.

I think Honda and Toyota have the right idea, now if the gov't can get behind them to bring the prices down to an offordable level until the sales get to a point where they can sell an affordable hybrid outright.. THAT makes sense. An affordable hybrid that gets >70MPG.

I'll show you the math:

As designed, the Volt has a 16KWh battery, and will use 50% of that capacity . That's 8KWh. Now, charging lithium batteries CAN get to 99% efficient. So a conservative estimate is 10KWh

My current electric rate is $0.130/KWh when you account for all fees and every other piddly charge. That comes out to $1.30 to charge the Volt.

That's $1.30 to go 40 miles.

Once per day (30 day month), that's $39 added to a monthly electric bill minus any funds I would of spent on gas.


That's up to, possibly more than 1200 miles on $39.

 

[itsbob]

On the Tesla web site they said it would cost basically .01 a mile.

I am not sure that your argument about adding smog is valid. Our energy grid is horrendously wasteful. Power plants generate power and feed a grid. If that electricity is not drawn (used) it disappears. Power plants and the grid work in concert to attempt to produce just enough electricity to meet the demand of the moment but there is always extra. I would think that you would have to add a large number of electric vehicles to impact the grid and cause more demand. The Tesla site says it will recharge in about 3 hours. that is like doing 2 extra loads of laundry, it would be less in a commuter car.

In addition coal fired plants in the US use low sulfur coal and are very efficient and use stack scrubbers. In other words you could boost the output of a coal fired plant enough to accommodate X number of electric cars and dump much less into the environment than the sum of all the tailpipes you replace.

I'm speaking as to this being the "solution". replacing all gas powered vehicles with Volt-like vehicles.

Our power grid, as it is now, wouldn't be able to handle the extra load, more power plants would have to be built, and with the likes of the clamshell alliance still out there just beneath the surface we would have to rely mostly on coal. ANOTHER non-renewable resource.

Coal plants may be cleaner than they were 20 or 30 years ago, but they are far from being clean.. This is not a pollution free solution by any streatch, it just moves the pollution somewhere else.

The place(s) where these cars would sell the most, are the places with the worst electrical grids in the country. Like CA, where they sell the most Hybrids.

AND, how would we replace the lost tax revenue? Out of the $240 a month I pay for fuel, roughly $48 goes to taxes. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it adds up. Easiest solution, move the tax from gas to elctric. And of course along with the tax, electric prices will soar. What gas prices are doing now, electric will be doing in 15 years.

 

[glhs837]

70K for a Tesla? Not quite, first years run went for what, like 100K each? And keep in mind, thats for the 2008 model, of which they are making less than 1,000. The 2009 ones will cost $110,000. This for a car that has almost no cargo capacity, only two seats, only gets 220 miles range (I still havent seen a breakdow of range vs throttle usage, I fail to believe that the 22o range actually happens if you actually take advantage of that sub-5 second 0-60, or + 100mph top end) from a 1,000 pound battery pack.

 

[AK-74me]

70K for a Tesla? Not quite, first years run went for what, like 100K each? And keep in mind, thats for the 2008 model, of which they are making less than 1,000. The 2009 ones will cost $110,000. This for a car that has almost no cargo capacity, only two seats, only gets 220 miles range (I still havent seen a breakdow of range vs throttle usage, I fail to believe that the 22o range actually happens if you actually take advantage of that sub-5 second 0-60, or + 100mph top end) from a 1,000 pound battery pack.

Read the thread, I corrected it, that first number came from the evil wiki article I read.

 

[glhs837]

Roger that, evil wiki shall hereafter assume blame for bad number


GLHS--Evil Wiki

 

[RadioPatrol]

GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Concept Site » Blog Archive » BIG NEWS from Bob Lutz: First Chevy Volt Prototype Hits the Road and Gets 40 Miles Electric!

How many Kv were required to recharge that sucker from the house ...... not a good choice is this day and age, with our Power Grid being so shaky ....





nice Articles you sent BTW

 

[awpitt]

How many Kv were required to recharge that sucker from the house ...... not a good choice is this day and age, with our Power Grid being so shaky ....





nice Articles you sent BTW

Actually, the Volt is a good choice because it offers two ways of charging. You can either plug it in or, if electricity is not available, you can charge as you go using the gas generator.

 

[Larry Gude]

'Buy'...

Tesla MotorsI would buy one.

Final pricing for the 2008 Tesla Roadster base model is US$98,000, plus a destination charge of $950. The majority of the first 200 Roadsters ordered by October 2006 came fully loaded with all optional equipment at a cost of about US$100,000.[28] The price for the 2009 models has been increased to US$109,000; options ranging from colors to audio to heavy duty cables can add another $10,000[28]

...or mortgage?

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

I'm speaking as to this being the "solution". replacing all gas powered vehicles with Volt-like vehicles.

Our power grid, as it is now, wouldn't be able to handle the extra load, more power plants would have to be built, and with the likes of the clamshell alliance still out there just beneath the surface we would have to rely mostly on coal. ANOTHER non-renewable resource.

Coal plants may be cleaner than they were 20 or 30 years ago, but they are far from being clean.. This is not a pollution free solution by any streatch, it just moves the pollution somewhere else.

The place(s) where these cars would sell the most, are the places with the worst electrical grids in the country. Like CA, where they sell the most Hybrids.

AND, how would we replace the lost tax revenue? Out of the $240 a month I pay for fuel, roughly $48 goes to taxes. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it adds up. Easiest solution, move the tax from gas to elctric. And of course along with the tax, electric prices will soar. What gas prices are doing now, electric will be doing in 15 years.

...but coal plants are rather isolated and have the benefit of being a centralized point where scrubbing and cleaning efforts, including CO2 recapture, can be focused on a single location as opposed to 250,000 cars scattered all over the place.

As I understand it, electric is very much more efficient than internal combustion and, at present costs, $.10 kwh electric is about a third the cost of gasoline at $3. So, setting aside the cost, which, if you think about it, has NOTHING to do with this other than consumer bytching, we'll use less coal to make electricity than an equivalent of oil due to the efficiency of coal generated electric over internal combustion engines.

 

[awpitt]

I'm speaking as to this being the "solution". replacing all gas powered vehicles with Volt-like vehicles.

Our power grid, as it is now, wouldn't be able to handle the extra load, more power plants would have to be built, and with the likes of the clamshell alliance still out there just beneath the surface we would have to rely mostly on coal. ANOTHER non-renewable resource.

Coal plants may be cleaner than they were 20 or 30 years ago, but they are far from being clean.. This is not a pollution free solution by any streatch, it just moves the pollution somewhere else.

The place(s) where these cars would sell the most, are the places with the worst electrical grids in the country. Like CA, where they sell the most Hybrids.

AND, how would we replace the lost tax revenue? Out of the $240 a month I pay for fuel, roughly $48 goes to taxes. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it adds up. Easiest solution, move the tax from gas to elctric. And of course along with the tax, electric prices will soar. What gas prices are doing now, electric will be doing in 15 years.

This wouldn't be a big problem as most charging would occur at night when power demand is lowest. Plus, charging batteries does not demand high current like AC units or blow dryers. It's low current.

 

[CountVlad]

I'm speaking as to this being the "solution". replacing all gas powered vehicles with Volt-like vehicles.

Our power grid, as it is now, wouldn't be able to handle the extra load, more power plants would have to be built, and with the likes of the clamshell alliance still out there just beneath the surface we would have to rely mostly on coal. ANOTHER non-renewable resource.

Coal plants may be cleaner than they were 20 or 30 years ago, but they are far from being clean.. This is not a pollution free solution by any streatch, it just moves the pollution somewhere else.

The place(s) where these cars would sell the most, are the places with the worst electrical grids in the country. Like CA, where they sell the most Hybrids.

AND, how would we replace the lost tax revenue? Out of the $240 a month I pay for fuel, roughly $48 goes to taxes. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it adds up. Easiest solution, move the tax from gas to elctric. And of course along with the tax, electric prices will soar. What gas prices are doing now, electric will be doing in 15 years.

Doesn't the electric car just shift the pollution to the power plant?
No. It's much easier to clean up one large stationary smokestack than millions of tiny mobile ones. In fact, where power is generated primarily from hydro sources, EVs are 98%-99.9% cleaner than equivalent internal combustion vehicles. Even where power comes primarily from coal, EVs are 55%-92% cleaner, depending on which gasses you are measuring.

And by the way, if you want a fair comparison to gas cars, you really need to include the pollution from the oil refineries, tanker ships, and tanker trucks.

For more detailed information about EVs and pollution, see Debunking the Myth of EVs and Smokestacks and also the Tech Paper EV Myths.

Aren't the dead batteries a hazardous waste?
No. Batteries are 99% recyclable, and are one of the most highly recycled products in the country. When you buy a new battery, the dealer will ask for your old ones in trade, or you will be charged a "core charge" if you don't turn them in.

For more detailed information about EVs and pollution, see the Tech Paper EV Myths.

If we have a lot of EVs, won't we have to build a lot more power plants?
No. EVs are charged primarily overnight. This is perfect for electrical utilities, because this is the time when they have surplus capacity available. In fact, a large population of EVs would serve as a "load leveler", allowing the power plants to operate with less fluctuation between high peak demand and low off-peak demand, which would make them run more efficiently.

Isn't a lot of energy wasted in the inefficiency of the power transmission lines?
Yes, there is a high level of efficiency loss in power transmission. However, it is still less than the inefficiencies of the internal combustion engine. For example, take two barrels of oil in the ground. Take one and turn it into gas to run a car. Turn the other into electricity to run an EV. Out of the 100% total potential energy in the crude oil, only 11% is left to turn the wheels of the car. The rest is lost in inefficiencies of extraction, refining, delivery, and combustion. Out the 100% total potential energy in the other barrel, 17% is left to power the wheels of the EV. The overall system from well to wheel is much more efficient for EVs than for internal combustion vehicles.

Copy/Pasted from Electro Automotive: FAQ on Electric Car Efficiency & Pollution

i am thinking about installing a electric conversion kit in an S10.. ill probably cost me about $6000 plus another $1000 in batteries but i think ill pay itself off...

well lets do the math... in average an s10 gets about 25MPG... average american drives 12000miles a year(ill probably put less since its only going to be back and forth to work and few errands) ....

12000 miles/yr..... 25MGP comes down to aprox. take or give 500Gallons gasoline, at $3.8 since the gasoline price its going to fluctuate comes down to $1900/yr for gasoline.... so ill pay for itself in aprox 4yrs at the actual price of gasoline.... but we all know that 5yrs ago gasoline was $1.5-$2 so i dont really see it coming down anytime soon....

plus in the grand scheme of things you're keeping the emissions down to a minimum.... good info here: Electro Automotive: Frequently Asked Questions

 

[Larry Gude]

I'd like ot add to...

This wouldn't be a big problem as most charging would occur at night when power demand is lowest. Plus, charging batteries does not demand high current like AC units or blow dryers. It's low current.

...that. I envision charging outlets all over the place so that people can charge up while at the mall. Credit card operated perhaps. People in colder climes have engine block heaters and plug in's all over town. So, the point being that the charging would be spread out throughout the day.

 

[itsbob]

Doesn't the electric car just shift the pollution to the power plant?
No. It's much easier to clean up one large stationary smokestack than millions of tiny mobile ones. In fact, where power is generated primarily from hydro sources, EVs are 98%-99.9% cleaner than equivalent internal combustion vehicles. Even where power comes primarily from coal, EVs are 55%-92% cleaner, depending on which gasses you are measuring.

And by the way, if you want a fair comparison to gas cars, you really need to include the pollution from the oil refineries, tanker ships, and tanker trucks.

For more detailed information about EVs and pollution, see Debunking the Myth of EVs and Smokestacks and also the Tech Paper EV Myths.

Aren't the dead batteries a hazardous waste?
No. Batteries are 99% recyclable, and are one of the most highly recycled products in the country. When you buy a new battery, the dealer will ask for your old ones in trade, or you will be charged a "core charge" if you don't turn them in.

For more detailed information about EVs and pollution, see the Tech Paper EV Myths.

If we have a lot of EVs, won't we have to build a lot more power plants?
No. EVs are charged primarily overnight. This is perfect for electrical utilities, because this is the time when they have surplus capacity available. In fact, a large population of EVs would serve as a "load leveler", allowing the power plants to operate with less fluctuation between high peak demand and low off-peak demand, which would make them run more efficiently.

Isn't a lot of energy wasted in the inefficiency of the power transmission lines?
Yes, there is a high level of efficiency loss in power transmission. However, it is still less than the inefficiencies of the internal combustion engine. For example, take two barrels of oil in the ground. Take one and turn it into gas to run a car. Turn the other into electricity to run an EV. Out of the 100% total potential energy in the crude oil, only 11% is left to turn the wheels of the car. The rest is lost in inefficiencies of extraction, refining, delivery, and combustion. Out the 100% total potential energy in the other barrel, 17% is left to power the wheels of the EV. The overall system from well to wheel is much more efficient for EVs than for internal combustion vehicles.

Copy/Pasted from Electro Automotive: FAQ on Electric Car Efficiency & Pollution

i am thinking about installing a electric conversion kit in an S10.. ill probably cost me about $6000 plus another $1000 in batteries but i think ill pay itself off...

well lets do the math... in average an s10 gets about 25MPG... average american drives 12000miles a year(ill probably put less since its only going to be back and forth to work and few errands) ....

12000 miles/yr..... 25MGP comes down to aprox. take or give 500Gallons gasoline, at $3.8 since the gasoline price its going to fluctuate comes down to $1900/yr for gasoline.... so ill pay for itself in aprox 4yrs at the actual price of gasoline.... but we all know that 5yrs ago gasoline was $1.5-$2 so i dont really see it coming down anytime soon....

plus in the grand scheme of things you're keeping the emissions down to a minimum.... good info here: Electro Automotive: Frequently Asked Questions

Can you find a little less biased website to pull your information from?

Ethanol and corn were the solution 20 years ago, we see how well that's worked out.

 

[Pete]

I'm speaking as to this being the "solution". replacing all gas powered vehicles with Volt-like vehicles.

Our power grid, as it is now, wouldn't be able to handle the extra load, more power plants would have to be built, and with the likes of the clamshell alliance still out there just beneath the surface we would have to rely mostly on coal. ANOTHER non-renewable resource.

Coal plants may be cleaner than they were 20 or 30 years ago, but they are far from being clean.. This is not a pollution free solution by any streatch, it just moves the pollution somewhere else.

The place(s) where these cars would sell the most, are the places with the worst electrical grids in the country. Like CA, where they sell the most Hybrids.

AND, how would we replace the lost tax revenue? Out of the $240 a month I pay for fuel, roughly $48 goes to taxes. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it adds up. Easiest solution, move the tax from gas to elctric. And of course along with the tax, electric prices will soar. What gas prices are doing now, electric will be doing in 15 years.

Our grid is just a grid, a delivery vehicle for the "distribution" of electricity and it already provides ample electricity during peak demand times, adding to the average daily delivery would not have that much impact. Perhaps in a peak demand scenario it might have problems but I am certain they could be overcome. So what if it needed to be beefed up a little :shrug:

Power generation just might need to be boosted but as Awpitt said above, charging the AMP everyday would add $40 to his power bill a month. Hell that is about how much adding a hot tub to your house would up the cost.

So California has a shiatty grid so the whole country should give up on electric vehicles? I don't think the problem in California is the grid so much as a lack of power generation. Weren't they trying to buy power from other states? Too bad for them their lack of foresight does not equal to a crisis for everyone else.

As far as taxes so what? If they did move the tax straight over to electricity and your $48 in tax is tagged on your power bill now the charge per month to charge your car $40 AND the $48 in tax is $88 a month, a savings of $152 over your $240 fuel bill.

 

[Pete]

...that. I envision charging outlets all over the place so that people can charge up while at the mall. Credit card operated perhaps. People in colder climes have engine block heaters and plug in's all over town. So, the point being that the charging would be spread out throughout the day.

I was in Maine and I never recall ever seeing any outlets for public use to plug in block heaters anywhere.

 

[Larry Gude]

As I understand...

Our grid is just a grid, a delivery vehicle for the "distribution" of electricity and it already provides ample electricity during peak demand times, adding to the average daily delivery would not have that much impact. Perhaps in a peak demand scenario it might have problems but I am certain they could be overcome. So what if it needed to be beefed up a little :shrug:

Power generation just might need to be boosted but as Awpitt said above, charging the AMP everyday would add $40 to his power bill a month. Hell that is about how much adding a hot tub to your house would up the cost.

So California has a shiatty grid so the whole country should give up on electric vehicles? I don't think the problem in California is the grid so much as a lack of power generation. Weren't they trying to buy power from other states? Too bad for them their lack of foresight does not equal to a crisis for everyone else.

As far as taxes so what? If they did move the tax straight over to electricity and your $48 in tax is tagged on your power bill now the charge per month to charge your car $40 AND the $48 in tax is $88 a month, a savings of $152 over your $240 fuel bill.

...it, Pete, CA has an infrastructure problem, a capacity problem. Rolling blackouts and brown outs have nothing to do with price; they are capacity issues. CA got behind on generation plants and transmission lines, both of which have limits.

 

[Larry Gude]

It's...

I was in Maine and I never recall ever seeing any outlets for public use to plug in block heaters anywhere.

...not cold in Maine.











Don't they have them in Minnesota and Alaska?

 

[kwillia]

SMECO has already given us notice they are predicting rolling blackouts within three years if the usage keeps increasing at the going rate... and this was BEFORE the talk of folks plugging in cars. http://forums.somd.com/life-southern-maryland/131436-rolling-blackouts.html#post2746261

 

[itsbob]

...not cold in Maine.

Don't they have them in Minnesota and Alaska?

If it wasn't cold in ME and NH I'd still be there.

I don't care where you are, -10 , -20 is friggin COLD, and that's cold enough to kill ANY DieHard.

I missed an exit one day in Maine as I was heading for Brunswick.. You know how I noticed?


The trees got shorter.

 

[Pete]

...not cold in Maine.

Don't they have them in Minnesota and Alaska?

You haven't been in Maine in February

Been to Minnesota several times never noticed them there. Spent 8 months in Alaska and didn't see them there but I was in a remote area most of the time. In Anchorage they might have them but I didn't see them. If there were going to be any it would be Fairbanks. In Fairbanks we had them on base but I didn't get out in town much