Christmas Carols: You can't sing that in here, do it somewhere else!

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
This year the Holidays might becoming under fire more and more:

The O’Reilly Factor
Wed. 8pm / 11pm
Christmas Under Attack — Find out why some people want holiday songs banned from school. Is YOUR town next?

When I was young in grade school and even high school, it was a seasonal happening. They played Christmas music over the PA in the hallways.

I can't remember anyone objecting to it. We used to have "Assemblies", and our Senior Choir sang carols for us; if you wanted to join in, fine.

If you did not, that was OK too.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
School bureaucrats getting their panties in a bunch over being sued--nothing new.

My solution? Hold appropriate holiday celebrations in school from the religions represented in the student body, without turning the celebrations into full-fledged worship.

From my standpoint, a less-preferred solution would be to sing only the Christmas carols that don't mention Jesus. Keep "Jingle Bells" and "Santa Claus is Comin' to Town" but leave out "Silent Night" and "Hark the Herald Angels Sing." I wouldn't like that, but I would do it just to shut up the complainers.
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
Tonio said:
School bureaucrats getting their panties in a bunch over being sued--nothing new.

My solution? Hold appropriate holiday celebrations in school from the religions represented in the student body, without turning the celebrations into full-fledged worship.

From my standpoint, a less-preferred solution would be to sing only the Christmas carols that don't mention Jesus. Keep "Jingle Bells" and "Santa Claus is Comin' to Town" but leave out "Silent Night" and "Hark the Herald Angels Sing." I wouldn't like that, but I would do it just to shut up the complainers.

Yes, I get your drift, and it would probably solve some of the problems.

One minor point though: What do Christmas carols celebrate?
 
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Dymphna

Loyalty, Friendship, Love
Penn said:
Yes, I get your driftt, and it would probably solve some of the problems.

One minor point though: What do Christmas carols celebrate?
We always sang Christmas Carols and Hanukkah songs both. Of course there are a lot fewer Hanukkah songs.

I remember one year in elementary school, we put on a play about Santa Claus travelling around the world and the types of things he saw, including places that didn't celebrate Christmas. He left Hanukkah gifts in Isreal, for example and somewhere else, they don't give gifts until Epiphany, so he hid the gifts to be retrieved later.

I think it's better to educate the children about all different types of celebrations, rather than deny their existance.
 

kom526

They call me ... Sarcasmo
"Santa Claus is coming to town"

would offend the Jehovah's Witnesses up in their "Watchtower". My wife teaches and about every other year she'll get a child from a Witness family and she has to hear no birthdays,Xmas, halloween etc. Basically everything that makes being a kid fun gets taken away.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
I'm a "majority rules" person when it comes to that sort of thing. You can't take away the traditions of the masses just because of one or two pixillated parents. If some parent objects to holiday what-have-you, tell them to enroll their kid in a private school.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
kom526 said:
would offend the Jehovah's Witnesses up in their "Watchtower".
I knew a guy whose family belonged to a similar denomination (can't remember the name). His family used to refer to Kris Kringle in seriousness as "Satan Claus." They believed that whole Santa thing was a plot by Ol' Scratch to take the Christ out of Christmas.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Tonio said:
His family used to refer to Kris Kringle in seriousness as "Satan Claus."
:rolleyes: Do you think weird people realize they're weird? Or do they think they are doing the right thing and everyone else is going to hell?
 
K

Kizzy

Guest
vraiblonde said:
I'm a "majority rules" person when it comes to that sort of thing. You can't take away the traditions of the masses just because of one or two pixillated parents. If some parent objects to holiday what-have-you, tell them to enroll their kid in a private school.

:yay: agree

I happen to be very good at whistling "Jingle Bells" "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" and "Silent Night." I found out yesterday. :diva:
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
vraiblonde said:
:rolleyes: Do you think weird people realize they're weird? Or do they think they are doing the right thing and everyone else is going to hell?
I guess I'm weird, but then you knew that. I think that Santa is OK, but I also think Santa is a distraction from the real Christmas. The word Christmas is a contraction of Christ mass as I understand it. Christmas was a strictly Christian celebration. I think others just wanted in on the gifts; material world you know. I became convinced that Santa is a distraction from Christ when I was in East Berlin before the wall came down at Christmas time. It had been or still was illegal to be a Christian and there was no mention of Christ, but displays with Santa were in the stores in East Berlin.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
2ndAmendment said:
I think that Santa is OK, but I also think Santa is a distraction from the real Christmas.
That's not weird. Weird is enrolling your kids in public school, then complaining about other kids celebrating birthdays and holidays. Weird is shriveling up in a little catatonic ball because you saw a cross or a menorrah. Weird is writing your Congressman because you heard someone sing "O Holy Night".
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
2ndAmendment said:
I guess I'm weird, but then you knew that. I think that Santa is OK, but I also think Santa is a distraction from the real Christmas. The word Christmas is a contraction of Christ mass as I understand it. Christmas was a strictly Christian celebration. I think others just wanted in on the gifts; material world you know. I became convinced that Santa is a distraction from Christ when I was in East Berlin before the wall came down at Christmas time. It had been or still was illegal to be a Christian and there was no mention of Christ, but displays with Santa were in the stores in East Berlin.


I wonder, 2nd A, do you think the Three Wisemen "bearing gifts to the Christ Child" had anything to do with presenting gifts on Christmas Day?:confused:
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Penn said:
I wonder, 2nd A, do you think the Three Wisemen "bearing gifts to the Christ Child" had anything to do with presenting gifts on Christmas Day?:confused:
Nope.

According to this site, http://www.novareinna.com/festive/xmas.html , the giving of gifts related to Saturnalia and pagan practices. The practice was not approved of by the early Christians nor was it part of the celebration of Christ's birth.



Members of the pagan order have always celebrated the Winter Solstice...the season of the year when days are shortest and nights longest. It was generally believed to be a time of drunkenness, revelry and debauchery. The pagan Romans called this celebration Saturnalia, in honor of their god Saturn. The festivities began in the middle of December and continued until January 1st. On December 25th, "The Birth of the Unconquerable Sun" was celebrated, as the days gradually lengthened and the Sun began to regain its dominance. It is a general pagan belief that the Sun dies during the Winter Solstice and then rises from the dead. With cries of "Jo Saturnalia!", the Roman celebration would include masquerades in the streets, mangificent festive banquets, the visiting of friends and the exchange of good-luck gifts known as Strenae...or "lucky fruits." Roman halls would be decked with garlands of laurel and green trees, adorned with lighted candles. Again, as with Sacaea, the masters and slaves would exchange places.

Saturnalia was considered a fun and festive time for the Romans, but Christians believed it an abomination to honor such a pagan god. The early converts wanted to maintain the birthday of their Christ Child as a solemn and religious holiday...not one of cheer and merriment, as was the pagan celebration of Saturnalia.

As Christianity spread, however, the Church became alarmed by the continuing practice among its flock to indulge in pagan customs and celebrate the festival of Saturnalia. At first, the holy men prohibited this type of revelry, but it was to no avail. Eventually, a decision was made to tame such celebrations and make them into a festive occasion better suited to honor the Christian Son of God.

According to some legends, the Christian celebration of Christmas was invented to compete against the pagan festivals held in December. The 25th was sacred not only to the Romans, but also to the Persians whose religion of Mithraism was one of Christianity's main rivals at that period in time. The Church was, however, finally successful in removing the merriment, lights and gifts from the Saturanilia festival and transferring them to the celebration of a Christian Christmas.

Christmas means "Christ's Mass" and is the celebration of Jesus Christ's birth and baptism. Although December 25th is generally accepted as being the time when the Christ Child was born, the exact date has never been chronicled with any degree of accuracy. There is neither scriptural nor secular evidence to establish the exact moment. One thing is relatively certain, however, the event did not take place in December. Since the child was born when shepherds were "abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flocks by night" (Luke 2:8), it is unlikely that shepherds in Israel would have been sleeping outside with their flocks during the month of December. In Winter, the herders would have led their sheep outside only during the daylight hours...the nights would have been far too cold. It is known that during the very early Christian centuries, the birth of the Christ Child was not celebrated in any manner. However, tradition dictates that the occasion has been commemorated since 98 A.D. In 137 A.D., the Bishop of Rome ordered that the birthday of Jesus Christ be observed as a solemn feast. In 350 A.D., Julius I (another Bishop of Rome) selected December 25th as the observance of Christmas. This date was made official in 375 A.D., when it was formally announced that the birth of Jesus would be honored on this day...the announcement also allowed some of the older festivies (such as feasting, dancing and the exchange of gifts) to be incorporated into the observance of Christmas. The use of greenery to decorate homes continued to be prohibited as pagan idolatory but, over the centuries, this too became an accepted custom of the festivies.
There are more details at the site.
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
I vaguely remember reading about the pagan rite identified with the winter solstice and Saturnalia.

But, I was just wondering if, down the centuries, someone - maybe a catholic bishop might have realised the story and events surrounding the birth of the Christ Child, and the Three Wisemen bearing gifts, and decided that this was not such a bad idea afterall.

That it might have then developed or evolved into what we've been celebrating down the centuries.

Just a thought.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Penn said:
I vaguely remember reading about the pagan rite identified with the winter solstice and Saturnalia.

But, I was just wondering if, down the centuries, someone - maybe a catholic bishop might have realised the story and events surrounding the birth of the Christ Child, and the Three Wisemen bearing gifts, and decided that this was not such a bad idea afterall.

That it might have then developed or evolved into what we've been celebrating down the centuries.

Just a thought.
Don't think it happened that way. When the Roman Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he added a bunch of stuff to the "church" to make the pagan worshipers happy.
 

UrbanPancake

Right=Wrong/Left=Right
Penn said:
This year the Holidays might becoming under fire more and more:

The O’Reilly Factor
Wed. 8pm / 11pm
Christmas Under Attack — Find out why some people want holiday songs banned from school. Is YOUR town next?

When I was young in grade school and even high school, it was a seasonal happening. They played Christmas music over the PA in the hallways.

I can't remember anyone objecting to it. We used to have "Assemblies", and our Senior Choir sang carols for us; if you wanted to join in, fine.

If you did not, that was OK too.

I really don't care about this issue, except that if there was a jewish or muslim child in school they would feel like there beliefs are not supported by the school system like christian beliefs. I mean when was the last time you heard a school celebrating a muslim holiday? If a school system is going to celebrate Christmas, then they have to celebrate jewish and muslim holidays.

America is a lot different from the time you grew up Penn. :patriot:
 

UrbanPancake

Right=Wrong/Left=Right
2ndAmendment said:
Don't think it happened that way. When the Roman Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he added a bunch of stuff to the "church" to make the pagan worshipers happy.

Exactly. The Christian Religion has been fabricated by many different men who wanted power. Anyway that is a different topic.
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
UrbanPancake said:
Exactly. The Christian Religion has been fabricated by many different men who wanted power. Anyway that is a different topic.
Gee, I'd hate to discover what fabricates the inside of your head; you know, the region between your ears. There is no chance that it could be be comprised of lucid graymatter.

Perhaps you were dropped on it - early on - when you were a baby? :confused:
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
UrbanPancake said:
Exactly. The Christian Religion has been fabricated by many different men who wanted power. Anyway that is a different topic.
You missed it entirely again, but what is new? Christianity was not fabricated by men but religion (there is a vast difference between Christianity and religion) calling itself Christianity has be subverted and tainted by men.
 
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