Controversies?

[Im_Me]

Finding three or four examples of MEEKNESS in a book that otherwise preaches "as John the Baptist did" is not a mandate to act that way.
The Bible speaks more about HELL than it does about Heaven.
Chew on that one creme puff!

What Bible are you reading? The old Testament may have included chaos and intrigue, but the rules change due to Christ's gift of Salvation. The New Testament is full of meekness. The life of Christ is all about the meekness.

Read what Chirst says when he is arrested in the garden and one of the disciples cuts the ear off of a servant of the high priest.

50Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."[d]

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"



Why would you bring up John? Are we called to be like John or to be Christlike?

Sorry the whole Heaven and Hell thing doesn't pan either...The word Heaven is in the bible more than 640 times. Hell is only there 55.

P. S. I'm a girl. You won't hurt my feelings calling me a cream puff.

 

[PsyOps]

Black, pasty smears. It will look like beer bottle stains.

While we're talking guitars... Here:

YouTube - Tommy Emmanuel - Ol' Brother Hubbard (cover)

 

[Starman3000m]

While we're talking guitars... Here:

YouTube - Tommy Emmanuel - Ol' Brother Hubbard (cover)

I have a 50s vintage Stella. Never could acquire the finger dexterity so it just sits there gathering dust. My son is the musician in our family. Has a Gibson Explorer a Flying V , writes and annotates his own music.

 

[ItalianScallion]

And how do you think Jesus feels about you calling one of His names?

As Christians, we can be bold for Jesus without being crass. Are most people going to hell? Yes. Is telling them they are going to hell going to change that? Not for most. Will someone that is down and out and in need be open to the message that God loves them especially when presented by someone who acts out of love and with a loving, caring spirit? I believe so.

Even when Jesus rebuked people, He did it in a loving manner with one notable exception when He threw the moneychangers out of the temple. Jesus did not even rail against those that beat, tortured, and crucified Him. He asked that they be forgiven.

Is there a time for fire and brimstone preaching? Absolutely! But that is mostly for the lukewarm and not for non-believers.

Think about the reaction of the non-believer to these two statements.

• You are going to hell!
• Did you know that God loves you?

One causes revulsion. The other at least presents a question and an opportunity for engagement.

If ALL of my posts were "crass", then I'd be wrong but most of my "stern" statements are replies to someone else attacking me or issuing false statements against the Bible. You've chosen to focus on the stern ones and ignore the others. Look closely, I've posted over 2100 of them. I'll bet my "stern" percentage is very low.
I've noticed that your chosen method is to hit and run. Ok with me, but I choose to linger longer. Remember, we're one body many parts. God uses you with your personality, Starman with his and I with mine. Just make sure the word gets out and leave my methods alone TYVM.
And, read the entire book please; it's a complete story but too many church people only retain the feel good stuff.
So, I guess you'd have a problem with John the Baptists' methods too (Matthew 3 v 7-12)??? He clearly looks more harsh than I....
Didn't Jesus say we tried a happy song and a stern one (dirge) and they didn't respond? (Matthew 11 v 16-19) Read the entire Bible please.

What Bible are you reading? The old Testament may have included chaos and intrigue, but the rules change due to Christ's gift of Salvation. The New Testament is full of meekness. The life of Christ is all about the meekness.

Why would you bring up John? Are we called to be like John or to be Christlike?

Sorry the whole Heaven and Hell thing doesn't pan either...The word Heaven is in the bible more than 640 times. Hell is only there 55.

P. S. I'm a girl. You won't hurt my feelings calling me a cream puff.

It's sooo hard to contend with first grade Christians who claim they know sooo much..........
My sweet Alexa add in ALL the names for Hell, darling...Lake of fire, eternal fire, fire, damnation, God's wrath, judgment, the worm does not die, Gehenna, etc. Anyone can play the concordance word games but you should do a thorough job.
Ok so, in your opinion, we shouldn't follow what the Apostles (John, Peter, Paul, Matthew) said?? Even when Paul said: "I urge you to imitate me"? "Follow me as I follow Christ"? Come on now Alexa
Look folks, you need to look at the content of my words and forget the method. If you talked to me in person, you'd see that I don't even break a sweat. I argue with your words and rarely your methods. And, FYI, I will not miss out on an opportunity to defend the Bible. I will not argue (much) on secondary (disputable) issues of the Bible; I never have. The ones I contend with are salvation and other serious issues. If you make the sign of the cross, I think it's great! Not something I do but not a sin either IMHO. You say that Mary is the mother of God, I'll be all over you.
P.S. Alexa. I figured you are a girl from your posts on here and (hopefully) by your screen name.

 

[PsyOps]

I have a 50s vintage Stella. Never could acquire the finger dexterity so it just sits there gathering dust. My son is the musician in our family. Has a Gibson Explorer a Flying V , writes and annotates his own music.

Computers allow such an easy and affordable means for home recording. You should (if you haven't) check into setting your son up with a home studio. It will change everything in terms of his own creativity.

 

[Im_Me]

If ALL of my posts were "crass", then I'd be wrong but most of my "stern" statements are replies to someone else attacking me or issuing false statements against the Bible. You've chosen to focus on the stern ones and ignore the others. Look closely, I've posted over 2100 of them. I'll bet my "stern" percentage is very low.
I've noticed that your chosen method is to hit and run. Ok with me, but I choose to linger longer. Remember, we're one body many parts. God uses you with your personality, Starman with his and I with mine. Just make sure the word gets out and leave my methods alone TYVM.
And, read the entire book please; it's a complete story but too many church people only retain the feel good stuff.
So, I guess you'd have a problem with John the Baptists' methods too (Matthew 3 v 7-12)??? He clearly looks more harsh than I....
Didn't Jesus say we tried a happy song and a stern one (dirge) and they didn't respond? (Matthew 11 v 16-19) Read the entire Bible please.

It's sooo hard to contend with first grade Christians who claim they know sooo much..........
My sweet Alexa add in ALL the names for Hell, darling...Lake of fire, eternal fire, fire, damnation, God's wrath, judgment, the worm does not die, Gehenna, etc. Anyone can play the concordance word games but you should do a thorough job.
Ok so, in your opinion, we shouldn't follow what the Apostles (John, Peter, Paul, Matthew) said?? Even when Paul said: "I urge you to imitate me"? "Follow me as I follow Christ"? Come on now Alexa
Look folks, you need to look at the content of my words and forget the method. If you talked to me in person, you'd see that I don't even break a sweat. I argue with your words and rarely your methods. And, FYI, I will not miss out on an opportunity to defend the Bible. I will not argue (much) on secondary (disputable) issues of the Bible; I never have. The ones I contend with are salvation and other serious issues. If you make the sign of the cross, I think it's great! Not something I do but not a sin either IMHO. You say that Mary is the mother of God, I'll be all over you.
P.S. Alexa. I figured you are a girl from your posts on here and (hopefully) by your screen name.

So we're taking a break from the nasty name calling and we're apparently making up pet names for each other. I'm calling you Uncle Bill. We're also back to the smileys (and I can see you dragged them all out). I can live with that.

When did I say I know so much? I'll fully admit that my greatest gift in religion is a willingness to question and learn and a stubborness to stick with my convictions. I serve the Lord through in other ways, not as a leader, evangelist, or bible scholar.

I obviously missed the plea from Paul to be crabby for Christ when I was concentrating on the Gospels. It's been a while since I studied Paul's letters. I promise to branch out. But in the meantime, I feel pretty confident in going with what the Gospels say.

I can go back to the bible word counts for the alternate names for Hell, but I'll have to add in all the alternate names for Heaven (Kingdom of God, Zion, Glory, Rapture, Salvation)...Given the head start it already has (and some of these are pretty popular words) , I think that may still win. All counts aside I guess it boils down to whether you're living for heaven or against hell.

On a good day you are challenging in a good way, but sometimes you really push it. When you get to name calling and questioning the faith of a person who will admit they are still growing, your method is your message.

 

[ItalianScallion]

So we're taking a break from the nasty name calling and we're apparently making up pet names for each other. I'm calling you Uncle Bill. We're also back to the smileys (and I can see you dragged them all out). I can live with that.
On a good day you are challenging in a good way, but sometimes you really push it. When you get to name calling and questioning the faith of a person who will admit they are still growing, your method is your message.

If I called you, "ME", I would be addressing myself so that's why the names.
Dr Phil is one of the many names I get called.
The smileys just goes to show you that it isn't personal. You get uptight much faster and longer than I do. What are you anti-smileys?
Anyhow, if you are a new Christian, you should come into this place with a bit more reserve instead of making strong statements as you did. It is our job to "inspect the fruit of others". Paul said we ARE to judge those inside the church. If some of your statements weren't contrary to what the Bible said, I would just encourage you with smileys but when you hit me with that feel good stuff and say I should be nicer, I will go on the defensive. I always try "nice" first but, as you can see from some posts here, it doesn't always work. If you folks would say that the Bible uses BOTH nice and stern words, then I wouldn't be so quick to Kirk out on you but everybody has to use the "feel good card" all the time and it's NOT right.
I left a church because the Pastor was all about "feel good, everything's nice and soft & loving" theology. His church was dying and the members were spoiled little softies. When a message of fire and brimstone was preached, they all shrunk back like little cowards and said we hurt their feelings.
It's a war out there and we're losing the battles daily! Nice doesn't always work.
Also because I get so tired of all the anti God people on here spouting out their lies and only 3 or 4 of us are countering them!!
End of rant. TVYM for listening.
P.S. No smileys, just for you!

 

[Starman3000m]

Computers allow such an easy and affordable means for home recording. You should (if you haven't) check into setting your son up with a home studio. It will change everything in terms of his own creativity.

Thanks PsyOps. He actually did get a software program a while back that he's been working on and, you're right, it has added quite alot to his creativity in being able to compose and edit music quite easily. He's even scored music by adding full computer-generated instrumentation to accompany his guitar recordings. Amazing, this new technology! Were you/are you into playing guitar or other instrument(s)?

 

[2ndAmendment]

If ALL of my posts were "crass", then I'd be wrong but most of my "stern" statements are replies to someone else attacking me or issuing false statements against the Bible. You've chosen to focus on the stern ones and ignore the others. Look closely, I've posted over 2100 of them. I'll bet my "stern" percentage is very low.
I've noticed that your chosen method is to hit and run. Ok with me, but I choose to linger longer. Remember, we're one body many parts. God uses you with your personality, Starman with his and I with mine. Just make sure the word gets out and leave my methods alone TYVM.
And, read the entire book please; it's a complete story but too many church people only retain the feel good stuff.
So, I guess you'd have a problem with John the Baptists' methods too (Matthew 3 v 7-12)??? He clearly looks more harsh than I....
Didn't Jesus say we tried a happy song and a stern one (dirge) and they didn't respond? (Matthew 11 v 16-19) Read the entire Bible please.

And what does the Bible say about defending yourself?

I don't purposely hit and run. I work for a living and post when I can. As far as Bible reading, I have read it cover to cover several times in different versions. I know that it is full of chastisement but that is mainly for believers, whether it was from Peter, Paul, John, James, or any of the others whom God used to write the words down. The New Testament books are mainly letters that were sent to the churches. They were not published and given like tracts on the street to non-believers.

This thread was not about you or starman3000 or anyone in particular; you made it about you. That you are arguing in itself ought to give you pause.

 

[libby]

The New Testament books are mainly letters that were sent to the churches.

Churches? What churches? How could there have been churches before the Bible? Without these letters, which you clearly said came after the establishment of the church, how did anyone learn anything? OH!! Orally?? Oh dear, how could they have "tested the teachings" without the Bible? How could they believers be sure that (fill in the blank)?
Teaching doctrines of Jesus Christ without the Bible = TRADITION!! They trusted MEN!! I mean, the only inspired words of the Apostles are contained in the covered and bound copies published by Simon and Schuster and bought at Barnes and Noble, right??
BTW-I do already know the nonsensical answer to the question, but I could resist reminding anyone who will listen that the church came before the Bible, which means that the Bible itself is Tradition!

 

[Zguy28]

Churches? What churches? How could there have been churches before the Bible? Without these letters, which you clearly said came after the establishment of the church, how did anyone learn anything? OH!! Orally?? Oh dear, how could they have "tested the teachings" without the Bible? How could they believers be sure that (fill in the blank)?
Teaching doctrines of Jesus Christ without the Bible = TRADITION!! They trusted MEN!! I mean, the only inspired words of the Apostles are contained in the covered and bound copies published by Simon and Schuster and bought at Barnes and Noble, right??
BTW-I do already know the nonsensical answer to the question, but I could resist reminding anyone who will listen that the church came before the Bible, which means that the Bible itself is Tradition!

Yeah, but the rub is that those who hold to Sola Scriptura believe that Tradition as it stands now is corrupted in some manner and that the Scriptures are the only reliable source of the Apostles teachings. Its not that we discount tradition entirely. As a Baptist I find the writings of men like Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Thomas a' Kempis, and Brother Lawrence very valuable. Just as valuable in fact as Calvin or Spurgeon or Whitfield. I particularly love The Imitation of Christ. However, they are not the source of doctrine.

But I see what you are saying and can understand the RCC view on it. I just happen to disagree.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Churches? What churches? How could there have been churches before the Bible? Without these letters, which you clearly said came after the establishment of the church, how did anyone learn anything? OH!! Orally?? Oh dear, how could they have "tested the teachings" without the Bible? How could they believers be sure that (fill in the blank)?
Teaching doctrines of Jesus Christ without the Bible = TRADITION!! They trusted MEN!! I mean, the only inspired words of the Apostles are contained in the covered and bound copies published by Simon and Schuster and bought at Barnes and Noble, right??
BTW-I do already know the nonsensical answer to the question, but I could resist reminding anyone who will listen that the church came before the Bible, which means that the Bible itself is Tradition!

You are kidding, right?

If not, check

1. Matthew 16:18
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

2. Matthew 18:17
"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

3. Acts 5:11
And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

4. Acts 8:1
[ Saul Persecutes the Church ] Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

5. Acts 8:3
But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.

6. Acts 9:31
So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.

7. Acts 11:19
[ The Church at Antioch ] So then those who were scattered because of the persecution that occurred in connection with Stephen made their way to Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except to Jews alone.

8. Acts 11:22
The news about them reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas off to Antioch.

9. Acts 11:26
and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

10. Acts 12:1
[ Peter's Arrest and Deliverance ] Now about that time Herod the king laid hands on some who belonged to the church in order to mistreat them.

11. Acts 12:5
So Peter was kept in the prison, but prayer for him was being made fervently by the church to God.

12. Acts 13:1
[ First Missionary Journey ] Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

13. Acts 14:23
When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

14. Acts 14:27
When they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

15. Acts 15:3
Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.

16. Acts 15:4
When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.

17. Acts 15:22
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,

18. Acts 15:41
And he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

19. Acts 16:5
So the churches were being strengthened in the faith, and were increasing in number daily.

20. Acts 18:22
When he had landed at Caesarea, he went up and greeted the church, and went down to Antioch.

21. Acts 20:17
[ Farewell to Ephesus ] From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church.

22. Acts 20:28
"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

23. Romans 16:1
[ Greetings and Love Expressed ] I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea;

24. Romans 16:4
who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles;

25. Romans 16:5
also greet the church that is in their house Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia.

26. Romans 16:16
Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.

27. Romans 16:23
Gaius, host to me and to the whole church, greets you Erastus, the city treasurer greets you, and Quartus, the brother.

28. 1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

29. 1 Corinthians 4:17
For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.

30. 1 Corinthians 5:12
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

31. 1 Corinthians 6:4
So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?

32. 1 Corinthians 7:17
Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk And so I direct in all the churches.

33. 1 Corinthians 10:32
Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;

34. 1 Corinthians 11:16
But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.

35. 1 Corinthians 11:18
For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.

36. 1 Corinthians 11:22
What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.

37. 1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

38. 1 Corinthians 14:4
One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

39. 1 Corinthians 14:5
Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

40. 1 Corinthians 14:12
So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church.

41. 1 Corinthians 14:19
however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

42. 1 Corinthians 14:20
[ Instruction for the Church ] Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

43. 1 Corinthians 14:23
Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

44. 1 Corinthians 14:28
but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

45. 1 Corinthians 14:33
for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

46. 1 Corinthians 14:34
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

47. 1 Corinthians 14:35
If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

48. 1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

 

[2ndAmendment]

And

49. 1 Corinthians 16:1
[ Instructions and Greetings ] Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.

50. 1 Corinthians 16:19
The churches of Asia greet you Aquila and Prisca greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

51. 2 Corinthians 1:1
[ Introduction ] Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:

52. 2 Corinthians 8:1
[ Great Generosity ] Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the churches of Macedonia,

53. 2 Corinthians 8:18
We have sent along with him the brother whose fame in the things of the gospel has spread through all the churches;

54. 2 Corinthians 8:19
and not only this, but he has also been appointed by the churches to travel with us in this gracious work, which is being administered by us for the glory of the Lord Himself, and to show our readiness,

55. 2 Corinthians 8:23
As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker among you; as for our brethren, they are messengers of the churches, a glory to Christ.

56. 2 Corinthians 8:24
Therefore openly before the churches, show them the proof of your love and of our reason for boasting about you.

57. 2 Corinthians 11:8
I robbed other churches by taking wages from them to serve you;

58. 2 Corinthians 11:28
Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches.

59. 2 Corinthians 12:13
For in what respect were you treated as inferior to the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not become a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

60. Galatians 1:2
and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:

61. Galatians 1:13
For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it;

62. Galatians 1:22
I was still unknown by sight to the churches of Judea which were in Christ;

63. Ephesians 1:22
And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

64. Ephesians 3:10
so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

65. Ephesians 3:21
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

66. Ephesians 5:22
[ Marriage Like Christ and the Church ] Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

67. Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

68. Ephesians 5:24
But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

69. Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

70. Ephesians 5:27
that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

71. Ephesians 5:29
for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,

72. Ephesians 5:32
This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

73. Philippians 3:6
as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

74. Philippians 4:15
You yourselves also know, Philippians, that at the first preaching of the gospel, after I left Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you alone;

75. Colossians 1:18
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

76. Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

77. Colossians 1:25
Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

78. Colossians 4:15
Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

79. Colossians 4:16
When this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter that is coming from Laodicea.

80. 1 Thessalonians 1:1
[ Thanksgiving for These Believers ] Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

81. 1 Thessalonians 2:14
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,

82. 2 Thessalonians 1:1
[ Thanksgiving for Faith and Perseverance ] Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

83. 2 Thessalonians 1:4
therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

84. 1 Timothy 3:5
(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

85. 1 Timothy 3:7
And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

86. 1 Timothy 3:15
but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

87. 1 Timothy 5:16
If any woman who is a believer has dependent widows, she must assist them and the church must not be burdened, so that it may assist those who are widows indeed.

88. Philemon 1:2
and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:

89. Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

90. James 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;

91. 3 John 1:6
and they have testified to your love before the church. You will do well to send them on their way in a manner worthy of God.

92. 3 John 1:9
I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say.

93. 3 John 1:10
For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.

 

[2ndAmendment]

and

94. Revelation 1:4
[ Message to the Seven Churches ] John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,

95. Revelation 1:11
saying, " Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

96. Revelation 1:20
"As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

97. Revelation 2:1
[ Message to Ephesus ] "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:

98. Revelation 2:7
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

99. Revelation 2:8
[ Message to Smyrna ] "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

100. Revelation 2:11
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

# [ Message to Pergamum ] "And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this:

# Revelation 2:17
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'

# Revelation 2:18
[ Message to Thyatira ] "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:

# Revelation 2:23
'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

# Revelation 2:29
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

# Revelation 3:1
[ Message to Sardis ] "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ' I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

# Revelation 3:6
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

# Revelation 3:7
[ Message to Philadelphia ] "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

# Revelation 3:13
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

# Revelation 3:14
[ Message to Laodicea ] "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

# Revelation 3:22
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"

# Revelation 22:16
" I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

 

[2ndAmendment]

The church at Antioch was the first church and that was many years before there was a church in Rome. Antioch is where believers were first called Christians.

 

[libby]

You are kidding, right?

If not, check

why are you confused?

 

[libby]

According to a survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv] According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v] Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi] Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]

Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals. Dr. Thomas Plante, a psychologist at Santa Clara University, found that “80 to 90% of all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent boys, not prepubescent children. Thus, the teenager is more at risk than the young altar boy or girls of any age.”[viii]

The situation in Boston, the epicenter of the scandal, is even worse. According to the Boston Globe, “Of the clergy sex abuse cases referred to prosecutors in Eastern Massachusetts, more than 90 percent involve male victims. And the most prominent Boston lawyers for alleged victims of clergy sexual abuse have said that about 95 percent of their clients are male.”[ix]

In a database analysis of reports on more than 1,200 alleged victims of priests identified by USA Today, 85 percent were males.[x] In another study by USA Today, it was determined that of the 234 priests who have been accused of sexual abuse of a minor while serving in the nation’s 10 largest dioceses and archdioceses, 91 percent of their victims were males.[xi]

Much has been made of a survey done by the Dallas Morning News which claims that two-thirds of the nation’s bishops have allowed priests accused of sexual abuse to continue working. But the problem with the survey is its definition of abuse—it includes everything from “ignoring warnings about suspicious behavior” to “criminal convictions.”[xii] Thus, the survey is of limited utility.

The data on the Protestant clergy tend to focus on sexual abuse in general, not on sexual abuse of children. Thus, strict comparisons cannot always be made. But there are some comparative data available on the subject of child sexual molestation, and what has been reported is quite revealing.

In a 1984 survey, 38.6 percent of ministers reported sexual contact with a church member, and 76 percent knew of another minister who had had sexual intercourse with a parishioner.[xiii] In the same year, a Fuller Seminary survey of 1,200 ministers found that 20 percent of theologically “conservative” pastors admitted to some sexual contact outside of marriage with a church member. The figure jumped to over 40 percent for “moderates”; 50 percent of “liberal” pastors confessed to similar behavior.[xiv]

In 1990, in a study by the Park Ridge Center for the Study of Health, Faith and Ethics in Chicago, it was learned that 10 percent of ministers said they had had an affair with a parishioner and about 25 percent admitted some sexual contact with a parishioner.[xv] Two years later, a survey by Leadership magazine found that 37 percent of ministers confessed to having been involved in “inappropriate sexual behavior” with a parishioner.[xvi]

In a 1993 survey by the Journal of Pastoral Care, 14 percent of Southern Baptist ministers said they had engaged in “inappropriate sexual behavior,” and 70 percent said they knew a minister who had had such contact with a parishioner.[xvii] Joe E. Trull is co-author of the 1993 book, Ministerial Ethics, and he found that “from 30 to 35 percent of ministers of all denominations admit to having sexual relationships—from inappropriate touching to sexual intercourse—outside of marriage.”[xviii]

According to a 2000 report to the Baptist General Convention in Texas, “The incidence of sexual abuse by clergy has reached ‘horrific proportions.’” It noted that in studies done in the 1980s, 12 percent of ministers had “engaged in sexual intercourse with members” and nearly 40 percent had “acknowledged sexually inappropriate behavior.” The report concluded that “The disturbing aspect of all research is that the rate of incidence for clergy exceeds the client-professional rate for physicians and psychologists.”[xix] Regarding pornography and sexual addiction, a national survey disclosed that about 20 percent of all ministers are involved in the behavior.[xx]

In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was receiving unprecedented attention, the Christian Science Monitor reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources. The conclusion: “Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.”[xxi]

Finally, in the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent.[xxii]

The issue of child sexual molestation is deserving of serious scholarship. Too often, assumptions have been made that this problem is worse in the Catholic clergy than in other sectors of society. This report does not support this conclusion. Indeed, it shows that family members are the most likely to sexually molest a child. It also shows that the incidence of the sexual abuse of a minor is slightly higher among the Protestant clergy than among the Catholic clergy, and that it is significantly higher among public school teachers than among ministers and priests.

In a survey for the Wall Street Journal-NBC News, it was found that 64 percent of the public thought that Catholic priests frequently abused children.[xxxix] This is outrageously unfair, but it is not surprising given the media fixation on this issue. While it would be unfair to blame the media for the scandal in the Catholic Church, the constant drumbeat of negative reporting surely accounts for these remarkably skewed results.[xl]

Without comparative data, little can be learned. Numbers are not without meaning, but they don’t count for much unless a baseline has been established. Moreover, sexual misconduct is difficult to measure given its mostly private nature. While crime statistics are helpful, we know from social science research that most crimes go unreported. This is especially true of sexual abuse crimes. At the end of the day, estimates culled from survey research are the best we can do.

By putting the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church in perspective, it is hoped that this report will make for a more fair and educated public response.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[libby]

“Child Maltreatment 2001: Summary of Key Findings,” National Adoption Information Clearinghouse, www.calib.com/nccanch, April 2003.

[ii] Wade F. Horn, “Common-sense article about abuse,” Washington Times, February 6, 2001, p. E1.

[iii] Dr. Garth A. Rattray, “Child Month and Paedophilia,” The Gleaner, May 14, 2002.

[iv]Alan Cooperman, “Hundreds of Priests Removed Since ‘60s; Survey Shows Scope Wider Than Disclosed,” Washington Post, June 9, 2002, p. A1.

[v]Laurie Goodstein, “Decades of Damage; Trail of Pain in Church Crisis Leads to Nearly Every Diocese,” New York Times, January 12, 2003, Section 1, p. 1.

[vi] Interviewed by Bill O’Reilly, Transcript of “The O’Reilly Factor,” May 3, 2002.

[vii] Bob von Sternberg, “Insurance Falls Short in Church Abuse Cases; Catholic Dioceses are Forced to Find other Sources to Pay Settlements,” Star Tribune, July 27, 2002, p. 1A.

[viii] Thomas Plante, “A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse,” A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse, by Dr. Thomas Plante.

[ix] Thomas Farragher and Matt Carroll, “Church Board Dismissed Accusations by Females,” Boston.com, February 2, 2003.

[x] Janet Kornblum, “85% of Church Abuse Victims are Male, Research Finds,” USA Today, July 24, 2002, pp. 6-7D.

[xi] “The Accusers and the Accused,” USA Today, November 11, 2002, p. 7D.

[xii] Brooks Egerton and Reese Dunklin, “Two-thirds of Bishops Let Accused Priests Work,” Dallas Morning News, June 12, 2002, p. 1A.

[xiii] Dale Neal, “Methodist Clergy Instructed in Sexual Ethics at Conference,” Asheville Citizen-Times, May 14, 2002, p. 1B.

[xiv] Cal Thomas, “Their Sins only Start with Abuse,” Baltimore Sun, June 19, 2002, p. 9A.

[xv] James L. Franklin, “Sexual Misconduct Seen as a Serious Problem in Religion,” Boston Globe, October 23, 1991, p. 24.

[xvi] “Pastors Are People, Too!”, Focus on the Family, May 1996, p. 7.

[xvii] Teresa Watanabe, “Sex Abuse by Clerics—A Crisis of Many Faiths,” Los Angeles Times, March 25, 2002, p. A1.

[xviii] Cal Thomas, “Their Sins only Start with Abuse,” Baltimore Sun, June 19, 2002, p. 9A.

[xix] Terry Mattingly, “Baptists’ Traditions Make it Hard to Oust Sex-Abusing Clergy,” Knoxville News-Sentinel, June 22, 2002, p. C2.

[xx] “Assemblies of God Tackles Problem of Porn Addiction Among Ministers,” Charisma, January 2001, p. 24.

[xxi] Mark Clayton, “Sex Abuse Spans Spectrum of Churches,” Christian Science Monitor, April 5, 2002, p. 1.

[xxii] Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests (New York: Oxford University Press), pp. 50 and 81.

[xxiii] Rabbi Arthur Gross Schaefer, “Rabbi Sexual Misconduct: Crying Out for a Communal Response,” The Rabbinical School of Reconstructionist Judaism - Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, November 24, 2003.

[xxiv] Roger Lovette, “Religious Leaders Must Learn to Handle Conflict Constructively,” Birmingham News, April 28, 2002.

[xxv] See www.theawarenesscenter.org/clergyabuse.

[xxvi] Laurie Goodstein, “Ousted Members Say Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Policy on Abuse Hides Offenses,” New York Times, August 11, 2002, Section 1, p. 26.

[xxvii] Michael Dobie, “Violation of Trust; When Young Athletes Are Sex-Abuse Victims, Their Coaches Are Often the Culprits,” Newsday, June 9, 2002, p. C25.

[xxviii] “Sexual Misconduct (ROLES): New Research Therapy Doesn’t Deter Sexual Misconduct by Psychologists,” Sex Weekly, September 15, 1997, pp. 27-28.

[xxix] Michael Dobie, “Violation of Trust,” Newsday, June 9, 2002, p. C25.

[xxx] Daniel Wishnietsky, “Reported and Unreported Teacher-Student Sexual Harassment,”

Journal of Ed Research, Vol. 3, 1991, pp. 164-69.

[xxxi] Douglas Montero, “Secret Shame of Our Schools: Sexual Abuse of Students Runs Rampant,” New York Post, July 30, 2001, p. 1.

[xxxii] “Schools Chancellor: Four Teachers Barred from Classroom,” Associated Press, June 12, 2003.

[xxxiii] Charol Shakeshaft and Audrey Cohan, In loco parentis: Sexual abuse of students in schools, (What administrators should know). Report to the U.S. Department of Education, Field Initiated Grants

[xxxiv] Ibid.

[xxxv]Diana Jean Schemo, “Silently Shifting Teachers in Sex Abuse Cases,” New York Times, June 18, 2002, p. A19.

[xxxvi] Elizabeth Cohen, “Sex Abuse of Students Common; Research Suggests 15% of All Children Harassed,” Press & Sun-Bulletin, February 10, 2002, p. 1A.

[xxxvii] Berta Delgado and Sarah Talalay, “Sex Cases Increase in Schools; Many Acts of Teacher Misconduct Not Being Reported,” Sun-Sentinel, June 4, 1995, p. 1A.

[xxxviii] The study is in draft form and is not yet available for quotation.

[xxxix] The dates of the study were April 5-7, 2002. It was reported in Roper Center at University of Connecticut Public Opinion Online, Accession Number 0402247. Hart and Teeter Research Companies did the survey.

 

[libby]

I meant to post these on the Irish abuse thread. Ignore and I'll get it over there as soon as I can.

 

[libby]

Yeah, but the rub is that those who hold to Sola Scriptura believe that Tradition as it stands now is corrupted in some manner and that the Scriptures are the only reliable source of the Apostles teachings. Its not that we discount tradition entirely. As a Baptist I find the writings of men like Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Thomas a' Kempis, and Brother Lawrence very valuable. Just as valuable in fact as Calvin or Spurgeon or Whitfield. I particularly love The Imitation of Christ. However, they are not the source of doctrine.

But I see what you are saying and can understand the RCC view on it. I just happen to disagree.

It's great that you disagree, but it means a lot that you say "you can understand" the RCC position.

My point to Starman, etc. is if God can protect the integrity of His word for the first 100 years via Tradition, it stands to reason that He could do so for 2000 years, as the Catholic Church says.
I agree that the Early Church Fathers are a valuable source of info, without being inspired. Moreover, it is interesting to note what ECF's have to say about various doctrines that the RCC is accused of making up hundreds and thousands of years later, for example the Eucharist.
Even if a person ultimately does not agree with the doctrine, their writings prove that such teachings were around long before Fundamentalists think they were.