Did Mary Have Other Children?

[Radiant1]

I don’t need to ask Star what his intensions are. He made them clear. He has made them clear all along. Star (as do I) believes ary gave birth to Jesus, went on to become a mother and wife like most other mothers. I do not believe she remained a perpetual virgin, there is nothing to support such a belief in light of the dozens of references to the contrary, and I think it serves no purpose in our salvation and bringing people to Christ to assert such a claim.

And yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah. Whether she is virgin or not has no bearing on salvation according to your or Starman so what is the point of this thread really? Either way it makes no difference, right?

That being said, I don’t care what you believe regarding Mary. If it makes you feel better to believe she was a consummate virgin and had no children beyond Jesus, and that keeps your faith more intact then who am I to question it? With all of these discussions I always ask myself: “How is this relevant to my salvation?” In this case, it’s not.

Thank you, and frankly I could give two craps less what you believe either, which is why I don't start threads akin to this one.

 

[Radiant1]

The intentions are to establish Biblical fact

I don't know who you think you're kidding but you just go on with your better than Calvin and 2000 years of scholarship bad-azz self.

 

[Starman3000m]

I don't know who you think you're kidding but you just go on with your better than Calvin and 2000 years of scholarship bad-azz self.

 

[Radiant1]

There isn't but please, do tell. Verses please... I've always said: the Assumption is an assumption.

Assumption is an assumption, really?

This has already been addressed (as has Mary's virginity btw). As stated previously, you don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but this is why we believe what we believe. Not only is it scriptural, it's also logical. If you want to be a simpleton and have scripture spell it out for you then you need to stop believing that God is Trinity.

http://forums.somd.com/4589663-post6.html

And with that, I'm done with this thread. I've made my points and said what I've had to say. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[onel0126]

And with that, I'm done with this thread. I've made my points and said what I've had to say. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Word to your mother

 

[PsyOps]

And yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah. Whether she is virgin or not has no bearing on salvation according to your or Starman so what is the point of this thread really? Either way it makes no difference, right?

Thank you, and frankly I could give two craps less what you believe either, which is why I don't start threads akin to this one.

Based on your snippy reply I obviously worded that wrong. What I meant was... It's none of my concern/business what you believe regarding Mary. I do care, but I draw the line in asumming whether you're saved or not.

Star seems to believe holding such beliefs does affect your salvation. He believes you are worshipping the wrong Jesus. I don't take that position. Scripture reveals to me that Mary did have children after Jesus which would make it impossible for her to be a virgin. So we will only disagree on that interpretation. That's as far as I'm willing to go with this.

 

[Starman3000m]

Based on your snippy reply I obviously worded that wrong. What I meant was... It's none of my concern/business what you believe regarding Mary. I do care, but I draw the line in asumming whether you're saved or not.

Star seems to believe holding such beliefs does affect your salvation. He believes you are worshipping the wrong Jesus. I don't take that position. Scripture reveals to me that Mary did have children after Jesus which would make it impossible for her to be a virgin. So we will only disagree on that interpretation. That's as far as I'm willing to go with this.

Um...PsyOps, let me ask you this: Setting the "perpetual virginity" claim aside, would you therefore go a step further and agree with the RCC teachings that Mary has been "assumed body and soul" up to Heaven where she literally now resides - assisting "Jesus" as a co-Mediator, co-Redeemer, Advocate, Queen of Heaven/over all things including the saints and the angels, can help souls get into Heaven, and is one to be prayed to for petitions that will be passed along to "Jesus" ???

Additionally, do you believe that Jesus' Blood was/is insufficient to cleanse you competely of your sins in the here and now and do you also believe that Christ's Blood didn't do away with God's wrath upon the Believer and a soul must be sent to a spiritual half-way house for further punishment/cleansing - cleansing that apparently couldn't be covered by the Atoning Blood of Christ in the here and now and once and for all?

That is the "Jesus" of the RCC and that is why I maintain that the Roman Catholic Church is preaching another Jesus - just like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are preaching and placing faith in "another Jesus".

The True New Testament Jesus is our Only Mediator and Advocate between God and mankind - not Mary; the True New Testament Jesus does not appear at the beckoning of the RCC clergy to become encapsulated into the Eucharist where His flesh and Blood are literally consummed within the RCC Communion wafer; the True New Testament Jesus is not the Jesus preached by the RCC.

 

[PsyOps]

Um...PsyOps, let me ask you this: Setting the "perpetual virginity" claim aside, would you therefore go a step further and agree with the RCC teachings that Mary has been "assumed body and soul" up to Heaven where she literally now resides - assisting "Jesus" as a co-Mediator, co-Redeemer, Advocate, Queen of Heaven/over all things including the saints and the angels, can help souls get into Heaven, and is one to be prayed to for petitions that will be passed along to "Jesus" ???

Additionally, do you believe that Jesus' Blood was/is insufficient to cleanse you competely of your sins in the here and now and do you also believe that Christ's Blood didn't do away with God's wrath upon the Believer and a soul must be sent to a spiritual half-way house for further punishment/cleansing - cleansing that apparently couldn't be covered by the Atoning Blood of Christ in the here and now and once and for all?

That is the "Jesus" of the RCC and that is why I maintain that the Roman Catholic Church is preaching another Jesus - just like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are preaching and placing faith in "another Jesus".

The True New Testament Jesus is our Only Mediator and Advocate between God and mankind - not Mary; the True New Testament Jesus does not appear at the beckoning of the RCC clergy to become encapsulated into the Eucharist where His flesh and Blood are literally consummed within the RCC Communion wafer; the True New Testament Jesus is not the Jesus preached by the RCC.

I agree that these CC practices are not biblical; just as I have stated speaking in tongues, healing, handling poisonous snakes, prophesy, etc… (as they are practiced today) are unbiblical. I do agree Jesus is our Only Mediator and Advocate between God and mankind.

I also believe casting judgment on who is saved and who isn’t is unbiblical. Leave the salvation to Jesus and God. Everyone will know their fate when the time comes; and that knowledge will not come from your or me. You’ve done what you can. Wipe the dust off your shoes and move on.

 

[Starman3000m]

I agree that these CC practices are not biblical; just as I have stated speaking in tongues, healing, handling poisonous snakes, prophesy, etc… (as they are practiced today) are unbiblical. I do agree Jesus is our Only Mediator and Advocate between God and mankind.

I also believe casting judgment on who is saved and who isn’t is unbiblical. Leave the salvation to Jesus and God. Everyone will know their fate when the time comes; and that knowledge will not come from your or me. You’ve done what you can. Wipe the dust off your shoes and move on.

Pointing out the comparisons between the New Testament Jesus Christ and a "Jesus" theology that is un-Biblical, according to the NT Gospels, is not passing judgment but passing along a warning.

IOW: Placing faith in the wrong Jesus is a matter of determining whether a person is saved or not. Not my words but those from Jesus as written in the New Testament:

Matthew 7:

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it

Sure, I could shake the dust off and walk away - but God, because of His love for the souls of mankind, does not give up on people and patiently continues to call them unto His Truth.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Just doing what I have been called to do.

 

[libby]

Shouldn't that be the case now?

Sure, but we are still in our mortal bodies, so we are limited in our ability to believe and understand. That is why what we have is "faith", not "knowing". The good and beautiful things of this world point to Him and His goodness, but these things are but a drop in the bucket.

 

[libby]

Based on your snippy reply I obviously worded that wrong. What I meant was... It's none of my concern/business what you believe regarding Mary. I do care, but I draw the line in asumming whether you're saved or not.

Star seems to believe holding such beliefs does affect your salvation. He believes you are worshipping the wrong Jesus. I don't take that position. Scripture reveals to me that Mary did have children after Jesus which would make it impossible for her to be a virgin. So we will only disagree on that interpretation. That's as far as I'm willing to go with this.

So, without looking it up...Scripture states that Jesus had brothers and sisters, but it does NOT state that Mary had other children, did it? If it is not explicitly found in Scripture then the idea that those brothers and sisters, at that time in history (meaning short life spans, etc.) in that culture, were actually Mary's children is.... EXTRA-BIBLICAL!!!

 

[PsyOps]

Pointing out the comparisons between the New Testament Jesus Christ and a "Jesus" theology that is un-Biblical, according to the NT Gospels, is not passing judgment but passing along a warning.

IOW: Placing faith in the wrong Jesus is a matter of determining whether a person is saved or not. Not my words but those from Jesus as written in the New Testament:



Sure, I could shake the dust off and walk away - but God, because of His love for the souls of mankind, does not give up on people and patiently continues to call them unto His Truth.




Just doing what I have been called to do.

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. - Matthew 18:15-17

:shrug:

 

[Starman3000m]

So, without looking it up...Scripture states that Jesus had brothers and sisters, but it does NOT state that Mary had other children, did it? If it is not explicitly found in Scripture then the idea that those brothers and sisters, at that time in history (meaning short life spans, etc.) in that culture, were actually Mary's children is.... EXTRA-BIBLICAL!!!

Here ya go, my dear libby! (Mary and kids)

Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press. And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
(Luke 8:19-20)

and;

This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.
(John 2:11-12)

 

[PsyOps]

So, without looking it up...Scripture states that Jesus had brothers and sisters, but it does NOT state that Mary had other children, did it? If it is not explicitly found in Scripture then the idea that those brothers and sisters, at that time in history (meaning short life spans, etc.) in that culture, were actually Mary's children is.... EXTRA-BIBLICAL!!!

I believe Staman sufficiently provided enough references to conclude that Mary had other children after Jesus. But you can’t demand it be explicitly defined in the bible that Mary had children, and if it’s not then it must not be true, while relying on extra-biblical sources to support believing:

Mary has been "assumed body and soul" up to Heaven where she literally now resides - assisting "Jesus" as a co-Mediator, co-Redeemer, Advocate, Queen of Heaven/over all things including the saints and the angels, can help souls get into Heaven, and is one to be prayed to for petitions that will be passed along to "Jesus" ???

There are no scriptures that explicitly support this belief. In fact I am comfortable stating that there really isn’t one scripture that explicitly supports this belief or the belief that Mary is an eternal virgin.

 

[Starman3000m]

:shrug:

The context is speaking about correcting a fellow-believer (your brother or sister in Christ) who is caught up in sins (aka backsliding) and you should try to help them get back on the straight and narrow and back into fellowship with God and with the congregation. A person who is believing in "another Jesus" than you cannot really be considered a brother or sister "in the same faith".

Granted, in homes and towns that totally did not want to receive the Truth of the Gospel of Christ, (Matthew 10:14; Mark 6:11; Luke 9:5) the Apostles were told to leave and shake the dust from their feet but I do not see how that applies here in unless you are saying that everyone on the somd religion forum is rejecting the New Testament Gospel Truths. :shrug:

The neat thing is that they have the option of placing me on "ignore" in their rejection of my position about doctrines that teach "another gospel" and "another Jesus".

 

[PsyOps]

The context is speaking about correcting a fellow-believer (your brother or sister in Christ) who is caught up in sins (aka backsliding) and you should try to help them get back on the straight and narrow and back into fellowship with God and with the congregation. A person who is believing in "another Jesus" than you cannot really be considered a brother or sister "in the same faith".

Granted, in homes and towns that totally did not want to receive the Truth of the Gospel of Christ, (Matthew 10:14; Mark 6:11; Luke 9:5) the Apostles were told to leave and shake the dust from their feet but I do not see how that applies here in unless you are saying that everyone on the somd religion forum is rejecting the New Testament Gospel Truths. :shrug:

The neat thing is that they have the option of placing me on "ignore" in their rejection of my position about doctrines that teach "another gospel" and "another Jesus".

This is where we part ways. I look at Catholics as my brothers and sisters in Christ and let God make the final judgment. You have decided within yourself they are not Christian. And I’m not telling you what to do. It was just a suggestion. You’re going to continue on regardless. You feel it’s your duty. I just think there is a line that you cross from correcting to bashing after a while. But, I’m proof that it’s hard to resist, so who am I to say anyway?

 

[Starman3000m]

This is where we part ways. I look at Catholics as my brothers and sisters in Christ and let God make the final judgment. You have decided within yourself they are not Christian. And I’m not telling you what to do. It was just a suggestion. You’re going to continue on regardless. You feel it’s your duty. I just think there is a line that you cross from correcting to bashing after a while. But, I’m proof that it’s hard to resist, so who am I to say anyway?

So be it, PsyOps - have a good weekend and an enjoyable Labor Day Holiday.


P.S. At this time, I will go ahead and "shake the dust off" for now and promise not to post any more comments through the weekend!

(The expected reaction)

 

[hvp05]

At this time, I will go ahead and "shake the dust off" for now and promise not to post any more comments through the weekend!

 

[PsyOps]

It's all my fault

 

[libby]

Here ya go, my dear libby! (Mary and kids)

Nope. It didn't say they were Mary's children.