Elam's

[BlissfulJumper]

Baily Mary Alice Goods old horse? Put him in a nice tight twisted wire snaffle and two hand him for awhile...ride on a loose rein and mostly with your leg..ask to drop by applying leg or spur to him...if he was trained AQHA WP or Hunter he is possibly spur broke...get off his mouth

No not Mary Alice's horse. He's from a training barn in Florida. He's in a corkscrew d-ring now. They "hurry trained" him so he would sell and now he's wound tight and needs to learn to follow the rein up and follow down. Goes into frame off of spurs.

I'm just trying to teach him to relax and not be so uptight about frame work.

 

[Cowgirl]

I'm not badmouthing your trainer, Blissful, because I have no idea who he/she is, or who you are. Trainers aren't always right. I once rode a horse for someone, and he said his trainer said the horse must always wear a martingale because the horse threw his head all the time. Well, as soon as I put on the bridle, I noticed the noseband was SO TIGHT and the bit was set waaaaaaay too high. The poor horse was in pain. It was a struggle to make the owner listen to me, but as soon as I loosened the noseband and lowered the bit, the horse stopped throwing his head. Apparently that trainer didn't know squat.

 

[BlissfulJumper]

I'm not badmouthing your trainer, Blissful, because I have no idea who he/she is, or who you are. Trainers aren't always right. I once rode a horse for someone, and he said his trainer said the horse must always wear a martingale because the horse threw his head all the time. Well, as soon as I put on the bridle, I noticed the noseband was SO TIGHT and the bit was set waaaaaaay too high. The poor horse was in pain. It was a struggle to make the owner listen to me, but as soon as I loosened the noseband and lowered the bit, the horse stopped throwing his head. Apparently that trainer didn't know squat.

I understand. And you are very right that not all trainers are right. There have been times when I've questioned what she's said but I still atleast give it a try and see what my horse does.

Wednes I had my horse in my trainers tom thumb and i've never seen him stretch so low. We've tried many bits on him and a corckscrew works for getting him to HUS mode with my spurs but for him to just learn to relax and stretch he does exceptionally well with a tom-thumb which from what I hear his very mild just like a d ring except in shank form.

 

[happyappygirl]

he's going down to avoid that bit and the pain it's causing on the roof of his mouth and the bars, not stretching low because you asked him too.
myler makes a nice curb type tom thumb. i'm with paso get out of his mouth.
teach him to lower his head using draw reins and an eggbutt snaffle. or better yet, teach him lateral softness, which translates to verticle when it's done correctly. no shortcuts.
you're not training him to commands, you're hurting him. he'll never transfer that to another type of snaffle.
a tom thumb is a nutcracker on the bars and jamming the roof of his mouth. period.

 

[QH_BaBe]

Whats so bad about them??

he's going down to avoid that bit and the pain it's causing on the roof of his mouth and the bars, not stretching low because you asked him too.
myler makes a nice curb type tom thumb. i'm with paso get out of his mouth.
teach him to lower his head using draw reins and an eggbutt snaffle. or better yet, teach him lateral softness, which translates to verticle when it's done correctly. no shortcuts.
you're not training him to commands, you're hurting him. he'll never transfer that to another type of snaffle.
a tom thumb is a nutcracker on the bars and jamming the roof of his mouth. period.

I had my horse in a tom thumb for god knows how long. . long shank and short shank. Never caused him pain and he actually preferred it.

Bliss its your horse do what you want. Im right along with ya!

 

[happyappygirl]

I had my horse in a tom thumb for god knows how long. . long shank and short shank. Never caused him pain and he actually preferred it.

Bliss its your horse do what you want. Im right along with ya!

Everyone has an opinion.....

The bottom line is shanks actually come together at the ring where the rein attaches when a rider pulls back. Imagine an upside down V with the point up into the roof of the mouth. That's how it comes together every time it's pulled, wether you have light hands or not. It's a nut cracker action. Some have very straight shanks making the action faster, some have a little more curve in the shanks which delays the action a little, but they all do the same thing.

Even though a A D-Ring or full cheek snaffle has the same mouthpiece, it doesn't have a shank, so the action doesn't make the point go up into the roof of the mouth like these do.

My opinion is, that's not a bit that should be used by an inexperienced rider, or one with heavy hands.

Elam has a 3 piece tom thumb type bit that actually looks pretty nice. it has a flat part with copper rings on the center piece rather than the regular 2 part snaffle joint.

 

[happyappygirl]

A "wonder bit" or "gag" works similarly and will give you the same respose, EXCEPT for 2 things. It is a large "O" ring, with a lot of play before it actually moves into the roof of the mouth, and it uses a curb (chin) strap (I always use a leather one never chain) that when correctly placed and adjusted, engages by applying pressure under the jaw to lift the head, and the shanks pull the nose in similar to a tom thumb but since other features (the curb, and poll pressure from the headstall) engage well before the point of the bit itself engages and moves into the roof of the mouth it's actually a kinder bit. And the curb strap also holds the bit itself in place so it's not nearly as hard hitting as the tom thumb.

With with proper hand placement (held above the withers and close together pulling UP not back) you will get the same response, with less pain in the horses mouth. It lifts the horses head, and pulls the nose in for bringing them into frame, using the headstall/bit.

Myler also makes a nice D ring snaffle with attachments on the bit itself, that will do something similar, rather than be a full "O" ring type action of a regular D ring snaffle or O ring. This seems like a good intermediate bit to me as well.

I'm speaking from the perspective of training gaited horses and needing that head set to lighten the front end, and creating lift and collection for gait (you also have to position your body back off the shoulders to adequately allow for that lift/reach in these horses-that's why so many gaited horse trainers develop the "columbian roll", where the rider actually looks hump backed when riding). Paso uses a curb strap with rings at the bottom and reins attached to that and to a bit, but these Wonder bits combine what she uses 2 reins for. Both work well, and I've used both. I just like using one rein, not 2.