Enron

TrueBlue

Member
VAslim on 9:34 am on Mar. 1, 2002[br]Hey TrueBlue tell us how George Bush helped Osama bin Laden hijack those planes lol
VASlim, sounds as though you’ve been reading the National Enquirer or something.

Personally, I prefer truth and accuracy to unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. And I doubt this one you mentioned has any more credibility than the countless ones circulated about Clinton.

         
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(Edited by TrueBlue at 1:22 am on Mar. 4, 2002)
 

TrueBlue

Member
For anyone who still doesn’t understand why Enron might be a political scandal for George W., Let’s put things into a framework that partisan Republicans can understand by comparing it with Clinton’s Whitewater investigation.

(1) Thirty-five people in the current administration have direct ties to Enron.
---  (Two people in the Clinton administration had direct ties to Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan.)

(2) The Enron collapse affects about 100,000 people directly, many more indirectly, and could amount to a $250 billion blow to the economy.
--- (The Madison Guaranty collapse amounted to less than $50 million -- for those keeping track, that would be .02 percent of the Enron loss -- and the Clintons' part in that would amount to a $100,000 paper loss of their own money.)

(3) Enron was the seventh-largest company in the nation.
--- (Madison Guaranty was one of the smallest savings and loans IN ARKANSAS. On the list of failed thrift institutions, it was near the bottom, just one-twentieth the size of First Federal of Little Rock, for example.)

(4) President Bush was directly responsible for securities law enforcement when Enron collapsed.
--- (Bill Clinton had no oversight of savings and loans when he was governor. In fact, the first President Bush had responsibility for the liquidation of Arkansas savings and loans, through his creation, the Resolution Trust Corp.)

(5) President Bush was a director of Harken Energy in 1990, when he sold $848,560 worth of stock right before the price plummeted. He didn't report the trade until 34 weeks after he was required to do so by law. The SEC investigated him three other times for failing to report insider trading.
--- (Bill Clinton was never accused of insider trading. Hillary Clinton was accused of short-selling some stocks, but she was not an inside trader. The Whitewater transaction occurred in 1978, 14 YEARS before the Whitewater special prosecutor was appointed, so the Bush SEC violation would actually be more recent.)

(6) President Bush and members of the Bush Cabinet relied on Enron for the energy policy that resulted in massive deregulation of an already mostly deregulated utility industry.
--- (Clinton relied on Jim McDougal for nothing.)

(7) President Bush received almost a million dollars from Enron and its board.
--- (Bill and Hillary Clinton LOST $43,000 to Madison Guaranty, who then begged them for more and asked them to sign over their share of the Whitewater land.)

(8) Enron controlled things like whether California had enough power and how dependent we are on foreign oil.
--- (Madison Guaranty controlled a 230-acre parcel of land on the White River that nobody wanted.)

From John Bloom, UPI, http://upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=01022002-101850-1612r

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Otter

Nothing to see here
TrueBlue on 1:12 am on Mar. 4, 2002[br]Thanks for the friendly advice, but I'll keep citing sources. Otherwise, someone is sure to say I?m making this stuff up.  

But when your sources, such as consortiumnews.com, immediately hit you with a pop-up donation ad stating "? Tired of the media treating George W. Bush like royalty?? , it kind of gives a different light on the agenda of the source.  
No one has to make up anything online, there's always some source stating that Bush was raised by aliens or Bubba Clinton was sent by the devil. Makes it fun..:)
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
I have to tell you, TrueBlue, even the Washington Post is eating crow about predicting a recession - turned out to be nothing and the economy seems to be bouncing back quite nicely, according to the papers.

It's also widely accepted that the people responsible for the 9-11 attack were also involved with the previous WTC bombing and several other acts of terrorism on Americans during Clinton's Presidency.  One can infer, then, that had Clinton acted more aggressively in pursuing these terrorists, they wouldn't have had the wherewithal to do the 9-11 thing.  Let's don't blame W for Clinton's policies.

I don't like to get excited about Whitewater - I always thought it was a tempest in a teapot, even though I loathe Clinton.  I was more interested in his treatment of Paula Jones (and make no mistake, sexual harrassment is in fact against the law) and the subsequent Lewinsky business (because perjury is against the law, too).   The other bimbos I couldn't care less about, except Juanita Broadderick (because rape is a crime, too, and she's not a bimbo).  The way Clinton seems to view women is more an indictment on the NOW, who supported him profusely.  Piggish men are nothing new - even piggish Presidents (LBJ and Kennedy were notorious pigs).

I was also interested in the Johnny Chung connection, the drug lord being invited to the Whitehouse as a guest and the Lippo Group land grab.  Also that Loral business - in fact, I'm interested in the whole Clinton-China connection.  But Whitewater happened before he was President so it doesn't interest me.
:roflmao:

Anyone who is still saying that Gore rightfully won the election needs to come up with a better argument.  The Dems keep saying that the Supreme Court chose our President - this is faulty logic in that the only thing the Supremes did was say that Florida couldn't change their election laws in the middle of the election.  The fact that Gore may have more votes is irrelevant - in the US, these things are decided on electoral vote, not popular vote.

And anyway, I don't think anyone really thinks Clinton had anything to do with the Enron collapse.  At least I haven't heard anything to that effect.


(Edited by vraiblonde at 2:12 pm on Mar. 4, 2002)
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Blue,

I'm still waiting for a response from you in regards to the distortions and absurdities you raised in the Somalia thread...

I think it is fine that you are obsessed about scurrilous and un-true allegations about Clinton. Kind of silly, considering your emotional reaction, that the only one I could find in here was whether or not Ken Lay was a guest of Clintons, don’t you think?

As ANY mention, or in this case, thought, apparently, that someone may have concerning bad behavior or other inadequacy on the part of Bill Clinton and the obvious fact that a predecessors actions certainly affect the situation his successor inherits (like the economic rebound before Clinton took office) seems a touchy subject with you, shall we address purely Clintonian issues?  

Just for openers:

Somalia
Waco
Dehumanizing of homosexuals (don’t ask, don’t tell)…the VERY least he could have done is simply say he disagreed with the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Health care debacle (go ahead, compare it to Enron)
GOP take over of the house after 40 some odd years of dem control (he wasn’t all bad)
Utah Land Grab (low sulfur coal/Lippo)
Chung, Trie and the rest of the gang who claimed the 5th
The some 1,000 FBI files (Livingston and the rest of those do gooders)
Letting Hussein stop the inspections
The stench behind the Foster affair and Bernie Nusbaum
Getting Barak to bend over for Arafat (cost Barak his job, Arafat still remains)
Haiti
Campaign finance abuses (by Dole to) totally ignored by Reno
Social Security reform (nothing, for eight years)
Welfare Reform (well, he did sign it)
Whitewater (I’m sure Susan spent 18 months in jail to protect the innocents)
Rose Law firm/Whitewater

And…could you tell me, seeing how research is so big with you, what is the statute of limitations on rape in Arkansas?

Ever hear of any of these issues dismissed because they didn’t happen? Wasn't it usually some evasion on the part of them? Maybe a lost record or two or simply ignoring a subpoena?

Damn, I almost forgot Loral and the PRC and their military.

I left out draft dodging, not inhaling, Bosnia and Osama to save space.

Now, if you’d be so kind as to list the links that show where all of this is a Bushs fault…
 

foxylady

Member
Could this be the case with most of you?
 


The Pathology of Clinton-Bashing
March 4, 2002
By Jeff Ritchie

What is it about the Bill Clinton?

Following eight years of relative peace and prosperity, conservatives now blame the former President for everything short of the Lindbergh kidnapping. Presidential spokesman Ari Fleischer last week announced that the recent violence in Israel and the West Bank was caused, not by the Bush Administration's disengagement, but by Bill Clinton's attempt to broker a peace deal between the two sides. On a daily basis, somewhere in America, there is a newspaper or magazine editorial that bashes Bill Clinton for one perceived shortcoming or another. One recent editorial claimed that if Clinton hadn't been fooling around with Monica Lewinsky, all those FBI agents investigating the infamous blue dress would have been free to flush out terrorists. This assumes that the President specifically requested a four-year probe into his personal life.

And when Clinton's dog was hit by a car in December, it was yet more evidence of the former President's immoral character. While all previous Presidents had their critics, it is nothing like that venom directed at Bill Clinton between 1992 and 2000, and which is still freely flowing today. Why do conservatives loathe him in ways that they never hated Jimmy Carter or John F. Kennedy or Harry Truman? The reason, I think, is that their hated of Bill Clinton has its roots in psychology and not politics.

Conservatives today are furious over what they see as a series of stinging political and cultural defeats, but their problem is that the one man they should be blaming is also the one man they could never possibly blame. I am referring, of course, to Ronald Reagan.

Far-fetched? Hardly. In the twentieth century, conservative political identity has been linked to small government, fiscal responsibility, and opposition to communism. Conservatives view themselves as the pious champions of small-town values like a reverence for religion and for the law. And Ronald Reagan was their president.

The problem was that by the time the 1980's were over, the Reagan Administration had made a mockery of their core beliefs. Despite his rhetoric to the contrary, Ronald Reagan did not limit the size of the government; the federal payroll actually increased under his administration. Budget deficits, long an anathema to Main Street Republicans, grew to stunning levels courtesy of the first Reagan budget. And it took a series of tax increases (supported by many those same fiscally conservative Republicans, lead by Kansas Sen. Robert Dole) to set the federal budget back on something like an even keel.

In a decade defined by its corporate greed, it seemed to conservatives that far too many of their President's friends were feeding at the trough. There were scandals involving the head of the Environmental Protection Agency, who accepted bribes from major polluters, and then there was the President's Chief of Staff who accepted gifts from the same Japanese corporations who were decimating the American auto industry. Finally, there came the revelation that while the Administration talked tough on terrorism, it was actually selling military supplies to Islamic radicals in the Middle East.

Religious conservatives, meanwhile, politely ignored that fact that Ronald Reagan was a man of no discernible religious convictions, despite his ability to repeat pious axioms on cue. They ignored the fact that he was divorced, that his second child was conceived out of wedlock, that he once fell asleep during an audience with the Pope. They even ignored that fact that even though he promised it regularly, the President never backed legislation to legalize school prayer or to outlaw abortion.

Blue collars workers who voted for Reagan were rewarded with plant closures and a federal government that provided tax incentives to corporations that relocated overseas. Fiscal conservatives were rewarded with a $3 trillion increase in the national debt and what seemed like no possibility of relief. Religious conservatives were rewarded with a stony silence by the administration on their most cherished programs.

Their hero, the champion of their values, had sold them out entirely.

Conservatives found themselves in a difficult position. Having invested so much of their identity in his presidency and having adopted Reagan as a national father figure, it would required a conservative of no small emotional fortitude to repudiate him. Just as abused children will continue to identify with their abusive parent, conservatives continued to identify with and to defend Ronald Reagan. Hating Ronald Reagan for the gross abuse of their trust was simply not an option, even though it was clear that Reagan was not a conservative, at least not by any definition they themselves would have used prior to 1980.

Conservatives knew that they were responsible for shackling their country with trillions of dollars in debt that their children and grandchildren would have to repay. They knew that their government had negotiated with and paid ransom to terrorists who then turned around kidnapped and murdered more Americans. They knew that the Reagan Administration had been conducting a covert war in Central America that resulted in tens of thousands of murders that included women, children, and — in one particularly appalling case — four American nuns.

So what ails conservatives? It appears to be something that strongly resembles Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. While one can observe nearly all the typical symptoms of PTSD in conservative behavior, I think that four in particular are worth noting:

Inability to recall key aspects of the trauma: Reagan supporters appear to be suffering from Alzheimer's Disease themselves, unable to recall the murder of 240 U.S. Marines in their barracks in Lebanon, but able to recall in detail the deaths of 24 US Army Rangers in Somalia.

Foreshortened Sense of the Future: Based on their fiscal and environmental priorities, Republicans seem to have a carpe diem attitude about the future. No Social Security? No Ozone Layer? No Problem!

Irritability or Outbursts of Anger: Notice the booming memberships in paramilitary militia groups during the past decade. Timothy McVeigh, who was treated with kid gloves compared to the abuse directed toward John Walker Lindh, continues to be the poster-boy for conservative anger.

Exaggerated Startle Response: Following the September 11 terrorist attacks, the Bush Administration activated a "shadow government" of some 100 bureaucrats. A plan devised during the Cold War in the event of nuclear war, it was never activated even during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

As the years passed and defending the Reagan legacy was clearly untenable, conservatives' rage needed an outlet, which they found in the person of William Jefferson Clinton. It was not enough to merely defeat Clinton in the 1992 election, it was emotionally imperative that he be destroyed and humiliated. He should, to use Clinton's own words, feel their pain. Even before his election, conservative publisher Richard Mellon Scaife was funding a series of investigations into Bill Clinton's past that would eventually become Whitewater.

They portrayed Clinton as a spendthrift Democrat, until the federal budget began to balance in the mid-1990's, and then they claimed (however implausibly) that the economic good times were actually the result of policies enacted by Ronald Reagan some fifteen years earlier. They portrayed the Clinton Administration as corrupt, hurling a half-dozen independent prosecutors and Clinton and his staff, and the result was not a single appointee convicted for a crime relating to actions as part of the Clinton Administration. They portrayed Clinton as a liar, under the perverse logic that lying about one's personal life is worse than Ronald Reagan's lying about multiple felonies committed by his staff as part of White House policy.

That Bill Clinton should have escaped them was all the more infuriating to conservatives. After eight years of relentless hammering, their bete noir left office with an approval rating that was even higher than that of Ronald Reagan. The wrath of God never descended on William Jefferson Clinton, and he would retire to the friendly confines of New York City to write his memoirs and hit the lecture circuit. With a majority of Americans still approving of Bill Clinton's job performance, conservatives like William Bennett could only grouse about a decline in national character.

Unlike other disorders, this one holds out little hope for effective treatment because there is a well-financed and highly-visible group that constants stokes the fires of hatred. The Republican Party and its handmaiden, the national media, will continue to portray Bill Clinton in the worst possible light, just as they will continue to make excuses for Ronald Reagan and his abysmal record as Chief Executive. Those who wish to live comfortably with their delusion will never lack for enablers.
Jeff Ritchie

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vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Personally, I could care less about Clinton - he is sooo 20th century. :lol:  I'm just tired of Clinton apologist and revisionist historians.  You all (and Jeff Richie) are trying desperately to pretend that none of that stuff happened - that everyone in the world is a liar except Bill, Hillary and their entourage.  Vast right wing conspiracy, indeed - and that witch didn't even have the class to apologize for that remark or even take it back after the whole world found out that Bill was in fact a philanderer.  Those people wag their fingers and lie right to our face.

The hypocrisy of the whole administration is beyond belief.  The only thing more unbelievable is that he still has fans out there.  The Rapist in Chief - what a scream!  Oops, forgot - that's another lying bimbo paid by the vast right wing conspiracy to cast aspersions on wholesome Bill Clinton the choir boy.

It's not surprising that you all still stick up for him - if I had voted for a rapist, perjurer and treasonist I'd probably be just as defensive and do the same thing.
:roflmao:
 

foxylady

Member
Blondie .... take a deep breath .... let it out .... now, does that feel all better?  You seem to have forgotten one very important thing ..... you started this thread about ENRON, not Clinton, but some of you have gone WAAAYYYYY astray, and instead of sticking to the topic when confronted with the facts you instantly jumped on the "demonize Clinton bandwagon".  

Do you think we could get back to ENRON now????  Frankly, I'm bored with the Clinton bashing.

:scowl:
 

TrueBlue

Member
otter on 10:24 am on Mar. 4, 2002[br]But when your sources, such as consortiumnews.com, immediately hit you with a pop-up donation ad stating "? Tired of the media treating George W. Bush like royalty?? , it kind of gives a different light on the agenda of the source.  
No one has to make up anything online, there's always some source stating that Bush was raised by aliens or Bubba Clinton was sent by the devil. Makes it fun..:)

Actually, Otter, you might want to take a second look at the article I cited at http://www.consortiumnews.com/2002/020602a1.html. This overview of GW Bush’s long history with Enron is merely a compilation of material gathered from many other news sources, such as “The Houston Chronicle,” “Business News,” the “New York Times,” and the “Washington Post.” Sources are referenced at the end of every third or fourth paragraph. Consequently, the information presented in the article did not originate from “Consortium News” but at more mainstream new sources.

However, I agree wholeheartedly, Otter, that we all need to be very wary consumers of news nowadays. That is why, with important issues like Enron, I try to confirm information by checking it out with a variety of sources.

Very good inputs, Otter. Thanks for the response.
 

TrueBlue

Member
Very impressive, vraiblonde and Larry Gude. That’s quite a Whitman’s Sampler for Clinton-Haters you laid out there.

But I’m confused, vraiblonde. I thought you wanted to discuss Enron. Isn’t that why you titled this thread “Enron” and not “Let’s List Every Accusaton the Right Wing Has Ever Made Against Clinton”?

In neither of your posts, vrai and Larry, did you state a single rebuttal or counter-argument to the very serious charges I laid out showing how George W. Bush has sold the U.S. presidency to the energy industry. Why is that?

Instead, you two responded just like most right-wing ditto-heads do on TV when confronted with evidence linking Dubya to the Enron scandal:  “Yeah but… Clinton screwed around with Monica!!!”

Nice diversionary tactic, but the issue on the table remains the fact what Clinton was doing to his floozies is what Dubya and his Enron buddies are doing to the whole country. Do you have nothing to say to defend your Republican president?

Anyway, thanks, you two, for providing ample evidence for a long-held theory of mine: That you conservatives actually need Bill Clinton, and you just can’t bear to let him go. You need him as subterfuge to divert attention away from your own guy’s shady practices; you need him to fire up your constituents and keep the contributions rolling in; and you need him as a scapegoat for everything bad that happens on your guy’s watch.

With regard to the last point, vrai: Since conservatives blamed Clinton for the economy when it was a recession, now that it’s looking better, are ya’ll going to give him the credit? I doubt it. That would be contrary to the Republican model of “Leadership,” which is to deny any accountability for the bad things, even when your guy’s on duty, and claim all credit for the good things, even when the other team’s guy is in charge.

Now, with regard to the Clinton accusations you challenged me to respond to: First, are they not just a tad bit off topic for an “Enron” thread? For the sake of proper netiquette, if you put them in a separate thread and put them in the form of a question to let me know what on Earth your point is, then perhaps we can discuss them.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Blue,

You are sad. As you won't even extend the courtesy of actually reading my reply to the nonsense you spewed about Somalia, choosing to loose some more instead, that will be about enough of taking you seriously.

You e mail me if you ever feel like being honest. In the mean time, keep your privacy so you don't get laughed at in public.

Keep the faith, bro.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
FoxyBabe, you are so right - this topic <i>was</i> about Enron.  But since True tried to make the comparison of Enron/Bush and Whitewater/Clinton and you posted the Ritchie article the topic veered.  Of course, all you have to write is "Clinton" and Larry goes crazy :lol: so say hello to the evolution of conversation!

The conclusion I've come to is:

1.  Corporations give contributions to political candidates

2.  They do this to either a) support the candidate that most closely reflects their interests or b) purchase influence outright.  This would explain why corporations give to all parties, not just one.  Hedging their bets, as it were.

3.  Politicians are going to favor their largest donors.  In my business, my largest clients (and the ones I like personally, even if they don't spend much) get preferential treatment.  It's the way of the world.  I'll resist putting a Clinton dig in here. :smile:

4.  It's hard to know what <i>really</i> happened since there are several different stories being touted.  What we <i>do</i> know is that Enron tanked, taking employee investments with it.  And we know that Bush was President when it hit the fan.

I'm going to address True's points in a different post, minus the Whitewater junk, which is so over with that I'm suprised anyone is still talking about it.
 

Christy

b*tch rocket
The Clinton Administration gave Enron over $1 billion in government subsidized (taxpayer financed) loans.  I'd be interested in finding out exactly how much Bush Sr, and the current President have handed Enron in "corporate welfare".  My guess is if you put the two of them together, it wouldn't add up to nearly that amount.  Heck, let's even throw in Reagan approved loans to Enron.
 

Otter

Nothing to see here
Washington Times - Diana West

I'VE been told to "get a life," "GET OVER IT" and "stop writing about ancient history." I've been told (repeatedly) to go on to something "new," and offered (consistently) the ever-so-helpful suggestion that "the Enron mess" is available for comment.
All this extremely constructive reader-criticism came my way after writing a column about the results of a congressional investigation into an ill-advised exercise in power-flexing known as "Giftgate." This little episode -- as only ancient historians steeped in the progression of the Punic Wars could possibly know -- was the quintessential Clinton scandal that last year transformed the White House into something resembling a busted pinata, with Bill and Hillary scooping up everything that wasn't nailed down or set in concrete, and filling their moving crates like goodie bags on the way out of town.

There. Now I've done it: mentioning Giftgate again, no doubt triggering a new round of primal screams --sorry -- a new round of concerned letters from readers anxious to alert a chap to the futility of brooding over, or, much, much worse, mentioning the Clintonian past. GET A LIFE!!!! Write something new. Write about Enron. (Amazingly, no such missives have suggested the war as an apt subject.)

Writing occasionally about Bill Clinton is a life -- if "life" here is taken to mean something worth doing, despite the occasional bouts of queasiness. After all, the man was our president, among other things, for two entire terms, and his record -- particularly the corrupting self-absorption that weakened a nation in the eyes of its enemies -- has colossal repercussions to this day. And why do these letter-writers think discussing the Clinton era should be verboten? Because some precious piece of the present might languish unreported. (Unless you are a Tokyo textbook historian, this urge to relegate the more unpleasant bits of history to a black hole may not seem entirely logical.) "Write about Enron," they say.

What about writing on Enron and Bill Clinton? There's "ancient history" with a nouvelle twist. Sometime after Big Media concluded that, with Enron having spread the wealth around Democratic as well as Republican circles, the debacle wasn't the Bush administration scandal they had yearned for -- in other words, that the scandal was more of a Wall Street story than a Bush White House story -- a fascinating article appeared.

"The Clinton administration provided more than $1 billion in subsidized loans to Enron Corp. projects overseas at a time when Enron was contributing nearly $2 million to Democratic causes," the Washington Times reported on Feb. 21. "In addition, the administration, which lauded Chairman Kenneth L. Lay as an exemplary 'corporate citizen,' granted about $200 million worth of insurance against political risks" for Enron projects in political hot zones, including the Gaza Strip. These generous subsidies came courtesy of the Export-Import Bank and the Overseas Private Investment Corp., government agencies that have recently provided the Senate Finance Committee with documentation of their support for global Enron projects, including the notoriously defunct Dabhol power plant in India. (Worth noting is that neither the Reagan administration nor the first Bush administration granted any loans to Enron between 1985 and 1992; the first Bush administration provided insurance for an Enron project in Guatemala in 1992.)

You don't need a Greek lexicon to get the message here about the Clinton administration's extremely helpful hand in the rise of Enron. But you might need one -- or maybe a secret decoder ring -- to unscramble this same story from other news accounts. According to the Media Research Center (http://www.mediaresearch.org), a conservative media watchdog group, only one network reporter -- NBC's Lisa Myers, on Feb. 25 -- has mentioned the Clinton-Enron connection, while the press has been barely more forthcoming.

The New York Times, for instance, presented the $1.2 billion worth of government loans and insurance as having materialized from two agencies -- namely, the Overseas Private Investment Corp. and the Export-Import Bank -- and not the administration that set policy for them. Not until the fourth paragraph does the name "Clinton" get attached to this government largesse. The Houston Chronicle buried the Clinton administration's support for Enron even deeper, tagging the subsidies as having come from "Uncle Sam" until the 16th paragraph.

Given this scanty or indecipherable coverage, it's little wonder one of my pen pals told me to nix the Clinton columns ("past history") and turn to the real news of the day -- such as the $1.2 billion in taxpayer-financed loans and insurance Enron received, as the letter-writer put it, from "the Overseas Private Investment Corp." Someone should try to break it very gently that this is a Clinton story, too.
 

DeeJay

Administrator
Staff member
That was pretty funny, TrueBlue and foxylady take an opportunity to extol the virtues of Clinton.  Then when their shot down, they say why are we talking about Clinton, like they weren't the ones who brought him up in the first place.
 

TrueBlue

Member
VAslim on 8:38 pm on Mar. 5, 2002[br]That was pretty funny, TrueBlue and foxylady take an opportunity to extol the virtues of Clinton.  Then when their shot down, they say why are we talking about Clinton, like they weren't the ones who brought him up in the first place.
VA, could you please point out where I “extol the virtues" of Clinton”? I reread my posts and saw nothing that would constitute praise.

And actually, Clinton was first brought up in the first post under this thread, assuming that’s who “Willy Jeff “ refers to. He was mentioned several more times before I responded to those claims.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
TrueBlue,

While you might not be extolling the virtues of Clinton it is obvious that your panties get all knotted up when someone criticizes him.  And unless you had your head buried in the sand from 1993 to 2001 you should be aware that Clinton wasn't anything ideal.  As to your (or should I say those media organizations you are prevalent to cite) feeling that this is a scandal involving the President I have yet to see any illegal activities on anyone other then the Enron executives (and Enron might have been within the bounds of the current law, which was left virtually unchanged during the previous administration on this topic).  All of the points presented (if they really are yours) seem to be guilt by association ploys; this is what helps the newspapers sell but rarely if ever pans out as time goes by.  You (and your referenced links) claim that Enron shaped US energy policy.  I just don’t see it that way.  The current administration is backed with history in the energy field and it seems to make sense to me that they would think somewhat alike.  It also makes sense to talk with those doing that type of business before establishing a policy that they will be bound to adhere to.  Does that make it a scandal?  No.  All it does is show the difference in how to deal with an issue.  Some are for development of new resources and some are into conservation and alternate energy, both have benefit and are worthy of debate.  To simply state that because the Bush administration is into the development approach that they conspired with Enron is nothing short of a witch-hunt spun up by those that feel a half a million votes should make a difference.  Keep grasping at straws as you sink deeper into this media quagmire.  People should focus on what the problem really is, that being that a company used unsound accounting tactics to bilk billions from shareholders in the pretense of being a major conglomerate.  They duped those people and it appears as if that was their intent.  Go after the ones that need going after and quit trying to tie this up into a neat little package as it just can’t be done.
 
S

ShellyCW

Guest
Personally, I try to steer clear of political discussions, but I'd like to congratulate TrueBlue and FoxyLady for stirring the pot a bit.  Honestly, from what I can tell, the majority of posters are Republicans or conservative.  Variety is the spice of life.  :smiley:
 
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