Fast & Furious

[EmptyTimCup]

So for months Obama has been claiming :shrug: what AFT Program





What'cho talking Willis


Now that the Obama administration has Claimed Exec Priv. - does this mean Obama Knew all along what was going on all along, and has been lying ?

 

[PsyOps]

As far I understand executive privilege, it’s only to be used when it specifically relates to White House communications. Obama invoking this indicates there were direct communications between the DOJ and the White house regarding Fast and Furious.

So, what is Obama now hiding; this most transparent president?

 

[SamSpade]

He's protecting Holder. Since he's a largely hands off kind of President, it wouldn't surprise me if he knew very little about F & F.

 

[b23hqb]

He's protecting Holder. Since he's a largely hands off kind of President, it wouldn't surprise me if he knew very little about F & F.

Disagree.

Although he probably did not know all the details (as all presidents don't, and could not possibly know), he knew enough to know he lied about not knowing anything. Without a doubt a number of his direct staffers knew a lot, especially those that are the direct liaisons between the Oval Office and their specific heads of departments.

Thus the Executive order to protect him and the WH from further scrutiny, if possible.

Executive Privilege is not for members of the Cabinet, just for the WH itself, but, hey, this bozo makes up rules as he goes along anyway.......

What hypocrisy of this group to allow weapons to illegally walk across the border, killing untold numbers of Mexicans/Latinos, and then just know literally granting amnesty to the same group here illegally just to possibly buy votes for November.

Obama's probably explanation to Mexico: "Well, let me be clear, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, you have to kill some of the good grass to kill the bad grass - uhh - why won't this teleprompter give me something better to say than this?"

 

[PsyOps]

He's protecting Holder. Since he's a largely hands off kind of President, it wouldn't surprise me if he knew very little about F & F.

There is absolutely no escaping the belief that Obama knew much if not everything. Obama wouldn’t hesitate to throw anyone under the bus he felt was a threat to him. He is in CYA mode and congress is going to be after him with everything they have; at least they should be. I know I would. And it has nothing to do with Obama being a democrat. If this had happened under a GOP president I would fell the same.

Every American ought to be incensed that this admin is trying to cover up a tragedy like this. One of our own law enforcement agents lost his life as a result of this. We should be demanding this be pursued with 100% attention. This is power run amok.

 

[Larry Gude]

He's protecting Holder. Since he's a largely hands off kind of President, it wouldn't surprise me if he knew very little about F & F.

I think that is right. The idea that he would sit down and get into how anything actually works just doesn't jive. This guy is a professor, a lecturer. Details are not his bad.

Having said that, I am also confident he knew about it from an idea, from a concept standpoint and I'd figure the idea came from one of his wonder kiddies and their bag of central authority tricks as well as Holder.

It seems obvious that someone in the administration had increased gun control either as their pet project or was given the job. Remember how US guns in the hands of Mexican gangs was all over the news early on in the administration? They were preparing the battlefield, setting the plate to have lots of public awareness on the issue so they could then come swooping in to fix the 'problem'. And it is a problem that exists but, they chose to make it worse, secretly, in order to set the pretext for 'fixing' it. Activist government.

 

[EmptyTimCup]

I am of the opinion, Obama is a Control Freak .....


he may not have micromanaged the program , I believe he had it set up, and wholeheartedly approved concept and the process .... expecting guns to show by the 1000's in Mexico to bolster the claim we need more gun control

The Ends

[more gun control]

... justify the means

[making illegal sales]


I would imagine no one [Obama or Holder .... etc] ever considered any of the weapons coming back north to KILL Border Patrol Agents ....


if the ATF runs the program, then the ATF can control the message if something bad happens

'we don't know what those gun dealers are talking about, the ATF never approved those sales'

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Part of me wants to believe he is protecting some classified info about some operations in Mexico.

Part of me thinks he is sticking up for his buddy.

I can't decide which side is pulling harder.

 

[Vince]

I am of the opinion, Obama is a Control Freak .....
he may not have micromanaged the program , I believe he had it set up, and wholeheartedly approved concept and the process .... expecting guns to show by the 1000's in Mexico to bolster the claim we need more gun control
The Ends

[more gun control]

... justify the means

[making illegal sales]
I would imagine no one [Obama or Holder .... etc] ever considered any of the weapons coming back north to KILL Border Patrol Agents ....

if the ATF runs the program, then the ATF can control the message if something bad happens

'we don't know what those gun dealers are talking about, the ATF never approved those sales'

Have to agree with ETC. Obama knows. He's not protecting Holder, he's protecting his own azz. I don't think he expected it to come back and bite him this early, before he thinks he's going to start his second term. Then, once re-elected, he would use it to alter the Second Amendment and initiate his gun control policies. And if you think this is far fetched, you haven't been watching obamy since he took office.

 

[PsyOps]

Part of me wants to believe he is protecting some classified info about some operations in Mexico.

Since when has Obama ever been interested in protecting classified information?

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Since when has Obama ever been interested in protecting classified information?

If it's classified, we wouldn't know anyway.

I hope it's to keep secrets, and not protect Holder's a$$....I'm sure it's the latter though.

 

[PsyOps]

If it's classified, we wouldn't know anyway.

I hope it's to keep secrets, and not protect Holder's a$$....I'm sure it's the latter though.

Well, as I mentioned before, I don't think Obama is all that interested in protecting someone else's @$$. If he knew he wasn't attached to this at all he would have since thrown Holder under the bus.

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Well, as I mentioned before, I don't think Obama is all that interested in protecting someone else's @$$. If he knew he wasn't attached to this at all he would have since thrown Holder under the bus.

Unless it worked out in his favor...

Just look at the Bin Laden killing. If something would have gone wrong, it would have been on Admiral McRaven's shoulders.

 

[chernmax]

 

[PsyOps]

Unless it worked out in his favor...

Just look at the Bin Laden killing. If something would have gone wrong, it would have been Bush's fault.

:fixed:

 

[Vince]

Well, as I mentioned before, I don't think Obama is all that interested in protecting someone else's @$$. If he knew he wasn't attached to this at all he would have since thrown Holder under the bus.

And that's exactly what he does when he doesn't need someone any longer. He will throw them under the dayum bus. And since he didn't do it to Holder, like Psy said, he must be involved in some way and protecting his own azz.

 

[Pushrod]

I've got to side with ETC on this. This was probably planned out by Obama and Holder as a way to make a small problem (some US firearms making their way illegally to Mexico, into a large problem; allowing more and more firearms to illegally cross the border so that they could initiate tighter control over firearm sales to legal US citizens. They already started that with the reporting of multiple sales to a single individual rule.

Have you noticed that the stories of all the US firearms being found in busts in Mexico has petered out since Fast and Furious came to light?

A US border patrol officer died because of this operation, this is bigger than Watergate ever was, this should be career ending for any President and cabinet members that were part of it...period!

 

[acommondisaster]

He's protecting Holder. Since he's a largely hands off kind of President, it wouldn't surprise me if he knew very little about F & F.

I disagree - based on the way Obama has thrown everyone under the bus to protect himself in the past. He's protecting himself with this executive order.

 

[philibusters]

I am of the opinion, Obama is a Control Freak .....


he may not have micromanaged the program , I believe he had it set up, and wholeheartedly approved concept and the process .... expecting guns to show by the 1000's in Mexico to bolster the claim we need more gun control

The Ends

[more gun control]

... justify the means

[making illegal sales]


I would imagine no one [Obama or Holder .... etc] ever considered any of the weapons coming back north to KILL Border Patrol Agents ....


if the ATF runs the program, then the ATF can control the message if something bad happens

'we don't know what those gun dealers are talking about, the ATF never approved those sales'

The history of the ATF's gun walking operations is a lot more complicated than that.

There were two smaller gun walking operations under the Bush administration, Operation Wide Receiver from 2006 to 2007 and a smaller seperate probe in 2007 (that was concurrent with Operation Wide Receiver) that didn't have a fancy name. These operations involved 650 guns and eventually ended up with nine people being charged. That does not sound like a high efficiency operation (letting 650 guns walk to charge 9 people with gun smuggling), but the Justice Dept. must have thought there was promise in these operations.

In 2009 Operation Fast and Furious was under-takened. The goal was to model these on the two earlier gun walking operations from 2006 and 2007 but do so on a bigger scale and try to target high level Gang members. The goal was to take out a large number of high level gang members which would disorganize the gangs and weakened them. Taking out high level gang members to weaken an organization is generally a plausible strategy, but its not clear if there was any realistic shot that a gun walking operation could do that. In hindsight it looks dubious. However, the Justice Department didn't have hindsight when they were organizing the Operation.

 

[philibusters]

Adding to my previous posts, Republicans are arguing that Operation Wide Receiver was fundamentally different than Fast and Furious because it involved controlled delivery's of guns not gun walking. I'll quote from an article about the difference that they are claiming then explain why I am not convinced by the argument

The quote is "The key to [Democrats'] strategy is conflating two very different programs: Operation Fast & Furious and a Bush era ATF initiative known as “Operation Wide Receiver.” In the questions from Judiciary Committee Democrats (principally, Senators Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer — there may have been others but, again, I didn’t see the entire hearing), it emerged that Wide Receiver began in 2006, when Alberto Gonzales was the Bush administration attorney general...Wide Receiver actually involved not gun-walking but controlled delivery. Unlike gun-walking, which seems (for good reason) to have been unheard of until Fast & Furious, controlled delivery is a very common law enforcement tactic. Basically, the agents know the bad guys have negotiated a deal to acquire some commodity that is either illegal itself (e.g., heroin, child porn) or illegal for them to have/use (e.g., guns, corporate secrets). The agents allow the transfer to happen under circumstances where they are in control — i.e., they are on the scene conducting surveillance of the transfer, and sometimes even participating undercover in the transfer. As soon as the transfer takes place, they can descend on the suspects, make arrests, and seize the commodity in question — all of which makes for powerful evidence of guilt. " Source of quote... Fast & Furious Was . . . Bush’s Fault - By Andrew C. McCarthy - The Corner - National Review Online

The reason I don't find that distinction all that powerful is that the agents didn't swoop in and make arrests, rather almost all of the 450 guns involved in Operation Wide Receiver eventually made it into Mexico. To me that is gun walking. Don't get me wrong, Operation Wide Receiver was a smaller operation and I believe they probably really were better able to track the guns and that Operation involved closer cooperation with the Mexican law enforcement, but ultimately those guns walked and most of them have not been recovered. The distinction made in taht article would be a lot more powerful if in fact, when the guns were transferred arrests were made, but that is not what happened.