Forgiveness

[Pandora]

Only those that don't read the Bible, which, by your measure, is probably most people since many of those that call themselves Christian never read or have read the Bible much less the average person. Many ministers never read the entire Bible even once and that is a travesty. Many don't believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit but many do. Jesus said Christians would receive the gifts. The gifts don't make me special. They are not my powers. They are the powers of the Holy Spirit. I just give my life, body, and soul to God for His use. The Holy Spirit lives within me and it is the Holy Spirit that uses those gifts. I am only a vessel.

I thought the gift of tongues was something given by God in order to help the earlier believers understand the message? And that once it was spread, as it is now, there was no longer a need for it?

I am trying to understand your religions difference on this topic, which I do have much interest in, so what would be the reason for the gift today?

It seems demonic to me, so I'm also asking to explain the difference. If somebody started speaking in tongues, how would one know it isn’t demonic or actually moved by the Holy Spirit?

 

[gumbo]

=Pandora]I thought the gift of tongues was something given by God in order to help the earlier believers understand the message? And that once it was spread, as it is now, there was no longer a need for it?

I don't know where in the Bible it would give you that understanding.
It sounds like you have been handed some of that mumbo jumbo that one of them lame religions that claim they believe in the Trinity. But at the same time they shun any of the powers of the Holy Spirit.
As matter of fact they usually tippy toe all around Corinthians.

I am trying to understand your religions difference on this topic, which I do have much interest in, so what would be the reason for the gift today?

There really is no religion difference on the topic, either you are or are not a Christan. A Christan is someone who believes in Christ and lives by all of his teachings the best that they can as written in the New Testament.
It is clear all through out the New Testament that all of Jesus disciples were given the power to spread the word and the Holy Spirit, creating more disciples and those created more and more.
So where is it written that the Holy Spirit was suppose to stop?
The reason today is the same as it was then. Once the Holy Spirit enters a believer and the Holy Spirit will only enter that of a true believer, then that person will become a disciple of the Lord.
Some will keep it quite because of reticule by those who don't understand.
Others spread the word and don't sweat the retaliations of the ignorant. Those few are rewarded by more gifts by the Holy Spirit as that person grows and matures in the word.
Funny thing with people! If they can't, it don't exist and they persecute those who can. Those who don't understand reticule those who do understand. Does this sound familiar? Like in the persecution and crucifixion of Christ and his disciples. Well the crucifixions have stopped in modern society but the persecutions by the ignorant never will until the second coming.
Those who tolerate the persecutions and stand strong in the word and the Holy Spirit will be the ones rewarded into the kingdom of God.

It seems demonic to me, so I'm also asking to explain the difference. If somebody started speaking in tongues, how would one know it isn’t demonic or actually moved by the Holy Spirit?

The reason it sounds demonic to you is because you have been brain washed by popular religions that teach half truths.
The reason these religions are so popular, is because they allow the half hearted too lazy to read the bible idiots to call themselves Christan's.
Where in the Bible does it say , say 5 Hail Marys and you wiil be forgiven?
Where in the Bible does it say, sit in a box and confess to some guy and call him father and you will be forgiven?
These same people want to teach you that speaking in tongues is Dominic.
Last I recall demons speak in Latin the same language some of these religons like to use to keep their flock in the dark.
Tongues is a heavenly language that is only understood by those in the Holy Spirit.
BTW.. You can read for yourself in the New Testament where it says call no man father except for the Lord and confess your sins to no one except for the Lord and only the Lord can forgive you for your sins.
Now do you want to believe who clearly gives false teachings and shows everyone the easy road. Or do you want to believe those who follow the hard road.
Read Corinthians for yourself but first, put down that King James version that those knuckle heads want you to read to keep you confused.
Unless your a Shakespeare grad, Go out and get a NIV Bible thats written in plain American English.

 

[forever jewel]

You can read for yourself in the New Testament where it says call no man father except for the Lord and confess your sins to no one except for the Lord and only the Lord can forgive you for your sins.

Yes you are right, to a certain extent. The bible does instruct God's followers to confess directly to him, and does not say

say 5 Hail Marys and be you will be forgiven...or...sit in a box and confess to some guy and call him father and you will be forgiven?

However, you are targeting one religion, specifically Catholicism, with these generalizations. Catholics believe that you confess to a priest, because God works through the priest, bishop, etc. By confessing to a priest, Catholics believe you are confessing directly to God. As for other Christian religions, I do not know. I will not make assumptions for other Christian religions or any religion for that matter, for which I am un-informed.

Okay, I feel better

 

[gumbo]

Yes you are right, to a certain extent. The bible does instruct God's followers to confess directly to him, and does not say However, you are targeting one religion, specifically Catholicism, with these generalizations. Catholics believe that you confess to a priest, because God works through the priest, bishop, etc. By confessing to a priest, Catholics believe you are confessing directly to God. As for other Christian religions, I do not know. I will not make assumptions for other Christian religions or any religion for that matter, for which I am un-informed.

Okay, I feel better

Where in the Bible does it say to have this belief?
One is mans rituals, the other is Christ's teachings.
The NT does teach us that the words Rich and Religion is an oxymoron.

 

[Kain99]

God forgives sinners. It is that simple. We are sinners; at least I am. I know God forgives me, but I find it hard to forgive myself. There are those memories of what I did wrong to others and God.

Not certain if this has been addressed but here goes.... Your difficulty forgiving yourself comes straight from Satan. Guilt is his favorite tool. Bind him 2A.

 

[Kain99]

Holy Smokes Gumbo! The gift of tounges is discussed widely in Acts Corinthians and Mark. The biblical support for the interpretation of the gift of tongues as languages is very strong.

There are three main interpretations of the manifestation of the gift of tongues in the church at Corinth.

The first one argues that the gift was the ability to speak the language of angels. This is based on Paul's reference to the "tongues of . . . angels" (1 Cor. 13:1).*

The second interprets that the gift of tongues was the capacity to speak other languages through the power of the Spirit (Acts 2).

The third interpretation states that the gift designates ecstatic or unintelligible utterances under the influence of the Spirit, in that Paul says the messages were unintelligible (1 Cor. 14:2).

On to Mark.... In Mark 16:17 the evangelical commission includes the phrase "they will speak in new tongues," which could hardly refer to anything but foreign languages.


And ----- Double Plus! Why in the world, would you equate Churches who actively speak in tounges with Churches who promote the Trinity? I beleive you have your religions seriously mixed up but God!!! That was funny!

 

[Pandora]

Gumbo,

You are right. I was primarily raised in the Catholic Church and a good majority of my study was in the Catholic Church. We’ve had conversations in great lengths about this and my conditioning, so to speak. I’ve been studying with an NIV version and right now, we are studying the life of Paul.

As matter of fact they usually tippy toe all around Corinthians.

The way the Corinthians were speaking in tongues helped no one because believers did not understand what was being said, and unbelievers thought that the people speaking in tongues were crazy. Speaking in tongues was supposed to be a sign to unbelievers and after speaking in tongues, believers were supposed to explain what was said. The unsaved people would then be convinced of spiritual reality and motivated to look further into the Christian faith. But even Paul says clear preaching is usually better in 1 Corinthians 14:5. It was my understanding that through their journey, they encountered many who did not speak their language and the use of tongues allowed them to interpret the message to them in the language they spoke. Of course this would be a gift to speak in a language you’ve never studied. Wouldn’t it be just wonderful to go to Italy and speak their language on travel? Never have to study it for years to be fluent?

And I’m sure that 2A will even agree that when it comes to speaking tongues, the churches are at a great divide on the issue.

 

[Kain99]

OIC! Sorry Gumbo. On my third reading I understand you beleive in teh spiritual gifts. My bad. I'm exhausted.

 

[forever jewel]

Where in the Bible does it say to have this belief?

Incorrect word usage. Sorry about that Confessing to a priest is the Catholic interpretation of a direct confession to God.

 

[gumbo]

Gumbo,

You are right. I was primarily raised in the Catholic Church and a good majority of my study was in the Catholic Church. We’ve had conversations in great lengths about this and my conditioning, so to speak. I’ve been studying with an NIV version and right now, we are studying the life of Paul.




The way the Corinthians were speaking in tongues helped no one because believers did not understand what was being said, and unbelievers thought that the people speaking in tongues were crazy. Speaking in tongues was supposed to be a sign to unbelievers and after speaking in tongues, believers were supposed to explain what was said. The unsaved people would then be convinced of spiritual reality and motivated to look further into the Christian faith. But even Paul says clear preaching is usually better in 1 Corinthians 14:5. It was my understanding that through their journey, they encountered many who did not speak their language and the use of tongues allowed them to interpret the message to them in the language they spoke. Of course this would be a gift to speak in a language you’ve never studied. Wouldn’t it be just wonderful to go to Italy and speak their language on travel? Never have to study it for years to be fluent?

And I’m sure that 2A will even agree that when it comes to speaking tongues, the churches are at a great divide on the issue.

First of all, understand that the book of Corinthians is a letter by Paul to the church of Corinth addressing some of the churchs problems.
In Cor 14 he is speaking of orderly worship. In other words don't be speaking in tongues when someone is speaking prophesies because prophecy is a far better gift and tongues the lesser.
And if I recall correctly Paul was explaining when it was appropriate to speak in tongues so that the church didn't sound like a bunch of clanging cymbals. What Paul was doing is explaining the order of the gifts.
Further more what Paul stating is that tongues was nothing more than a bunch of jibber jabber unless someone was interpreting.
Speaking in tongues is not conversing in a foreign language, it is the Holy Spirit speaking through someone.
Tongues is not a language of this world. I have heard theories that it is some type of ancient Aramaic. However it takes someone with the gift to interpret to translate. Now whether someone has spoke in a foreign language like Italian or something is unheard of by myself.
From my understanding one would speak in tongues in a land that his language was not understood, then someone of that land would interpret the tongues that was spoken, then translate in his own language, for those poeple of his language to understand.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Haven't got time to get into this right now. Preoccupied. I'll try to get back.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Where in the Bible does it say to have this belief?
One is mans rituals, the other is Christ's teachings.
The NT does teach us that the words Rich and Religion is an oxymoron.

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

But that is only for Christians to be able to encourage one another. As is the case with many religions (denominations), man gets in the way of God's word and tries to impose human limits. Catholic doctrine says Catholics have to confess to a priest. The Bible says confess our sins to one another. Of course elsewhere, the Bible says confess your sins to God.

1 John 1:5-10

5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Gumbo,

You are right. I was primarily raised in the Catholic Church and a good majority of my study was in the Catholic Church. We’ve had conversations in great lengths about this and my conditioning, so to speak. I’ve been studying with an NIV version and right now, we are studying the life of Paul.




The way the Corinthians were speaking in tongues helped no one because believers did not understand what was being said, and unbelievers thought that the people speaking in tongues were crazy. Speaking in tongues was supposed to be a sign to unbelievers and after speaking in tongues, believers were supposed to explain what was said. The unsaved people would then be convinced of spiritual reality and motivated to look further into the Christian faith. But even Paul says clear preaching is usually better in 1 Corinthians 14:5. It was my understanding that through their journey, they encountered many who did not speak their language and the use of tongues allowed them to interpret the message to them in the language they spoke. Of course this would be a gift to speak in a language you’ve never studied. Wouldn’t it be just wonderful to go to Italy and speak their language on travel? Never have to study it for years to be fluent?

And I’m sure that 2A will even agree that when it comes to speaking tongues, the churches are at a great divide on the issue.

As to the gifts and whether they are real and from God, Jesus said they are and that they would be poured out in the last days. See the passage I posted earlier, post 14, Mark 3:16-18. If Jesus said it, I believe it.

I also posted the passages from Acts 3 and 1 Corinthians in post 14, so I won't repeat them except certain verses.. Churches that quench the gifts of the Holy Spirit or teach against them are teaching in direct violation of the instruction in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 14:39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

1 Thessalonians 5:16-22

16Rejoice always;

17pray without ceasing;

18in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

19Do not quench the Spirit;

20do not despise prophetic utterances.

21But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

22abstain from every form of evil.

I am firmly convinced that there are Christians in probably every denomination of the Christian churches. I received the gifts while a member of a non-denominational prayer group sponsored by a Catholic brother at Ryken. We used to meet on Friday nights and had about 300 people there every Friday. I have been in prayer where one person was prying and would stop in mid sentence and another person would pick up at the very next word with no hesitation and no change in thought. I know it was not rehearsed because I was often one of those that had part of the prayer. Many of the prayer group attended Catholic churches. Father Luby that was at the Catholic church in Compton had the gift of healing. So Christians that are Catholics do get the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I used to go to a Baptist church. The church held a class on the gifts of the spirit. Well they were not the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Quit frankly, you can't get the gifts from attending a class. The class material talked of being able to tithe and just human abilities used for the church, not for God, but the administration of the church. I met a woman there and we were talking and she that the class wasn't what she expected. I agreed. She said she had received the gift of tongues and wanted to understand it better. The class had no material on tongues, translation of tongues, prophesy, healing, or any of the gifts in 1 Corinthians. I eventually stop going to the Baptist church. I was convicted by this passage.

2 Timothy 3:1-7

1But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,

4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,

7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The power is in the Holy Spirit.

Peter had the power over life and death.

Acts 5:1-11

1But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,

2and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.

3But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

4"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

5And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.

6The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

7Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.

8And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."

9Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."

10And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

11And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

Glad I don't have that gift; my temper is too quick.


continued ...

 

[2ndAmendment]

continuation

I am also firmly convinced that there are people in charge in churches that are not Christians, wolves in sheep's clothing. Because of this, Christians must be discerning. We must keep our faith in Jesus and not in church leaders. When it is plain that doctrine conflicts with the Bible, then the Bible is the authority. Many people that are ministers have never read the entire Bible. Some churches and ministers teach that certain sins are OK. I won't go into details because this has been controversial enough and I didn't mean for this to cause commotion or division, but I will not deny the Holy Spirit.

I know the gifts I have been given are real. They have been confirmed several times. And let me clear something up. The gift of prophesy is not like fortune telling which is against the Bible and I cannot prophesy on my own volition. The gift of prophesy has awesome responsibility and consequences. I pray that God will stop my voice and any means of communication if I ever claim to speak His word when I am not. The consequence for being a false prophet prescribed in the Bible is death. I take that seriously. When God gives me something, sometimes it is for an individual and sometimes it is for a group or the church. He usually wakes me up at night and there is no doubt what is going on; His voice is clear. It does not happen often, but when it does, God gets my attention. I do not often have the gift of translation of tongues; only seems to happen when there is not another person with the gift of translation present or when the translation is being given by more than one person and I am included; those are powerful and convincing events.

Tongues comes three ways. One is where a person is given a language to proclaim to others. A Baptist minister told me he was on a missionary trip to Russia. The translator was late so he just started preaching on the street in English. He drew a crowd. The translator showed up and wondered why he was needed since the minister was speaking perfect Russian. The minister did not know Russian and did not know he was speaking in Russian.

Tongues is also a prayer language and may be a recognizable language (I have been told that my gift sounds like Hebrew or possibly Aramaic. I don't know and have never studied either language.) or may the the tongue of angels as Paul wrote of. Tongues is used in prayer. If tongues is used at a volume that is sufficient for the whole assembly, then there must be a translation or we become the clanging gongs. Tongues is also used as a priate prayer language. The Holy Spirit prays for you and/or others about things the actual speaker has no knowledge of. For example, if I pray with someone in tongues, the Holy Spirit can be praying for that person about their inner most secrets without me having to know them. Because two or more are joined in prayer, God is present in that prayer.

Matthew 18:19-20

19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

I know lots of ministers and denominations teach against the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Of these, I can only repeat:

2 Timothy 3:1-7

1But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,

4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,

7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.