Fractivists Weep

Blister

Blister

Well-Known Member
Chris0nllyn said:
I find it a bit hard to believe that fracking actually uses less water.

They pressure pump water down a well, while coal and nuke plants simply pump in river water.

unless I'm missing something...
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You are missing several steps. Steam turbine units, whether coal, oil, gas or nuclear need demineralized boiler water to run the steam turbine. Generally starting off as ground water. More efficient combined cycle gas turbines use the exhaust heat of the turbine to make steam to turn a turbine-generator, more ground water. River water is generally only used to condense the steam back to water to start the boiler cycle over again. Modern pollution control systems for boilers and gas turbines need millions of gallons of fresh water daily to treat the exhaust to reduce emissions. Just look at the steam plumes rising from Morgantown and Chalk Point now that they were required to add scrubbers. Millions of gallons of fresh water everyday at each plant going up as water vapor. Chalk Pt. is ground water, Morgantown is river water that has undergone an expensive Reverse Osmosis process to desalinate it. They were denied permits to take the needed amount of water from wells due to a concern about the aquifers in the area.
 
Gilligan

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
I've yet to see any concrete evidence that fracking activities have caused well water contamination or gas intrusion. The EPA and other groups have been vigorously looking for it for years...and nothing. For that "Gasland" movie, the producers had to completely fake it, and got caught too.:killingme

Other things cause well water contamination, of course, and natural gas has been coming up in water from shallow wells since man first started drilling them.
 
lsheeline

lsheeline

New Member
Blister said:
Millions of gallons of fresh water everyday at each plant going up as water vapor. Chalk Pt. is ground water, Morgantown is river water that has undergone an expensive Reverse Osmosis process to desalinate it. They were denied permits to take the needed amount of water from wells due to a concern about the aquifers in the area.
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Blister - do you have any sources for this, that I can read up on? I didn't realize water was the issue. Many thanks!
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Gilligan said:
I've yet to see any concrete evidence that fracking activities have caused well water contamination or gas intrusion. The EPA and other groups have been vigorously looking for it for years...and nothing. For that "Gasland" movie, the producers had to completely fake it, and got caught too.:killingme

Other things cause well water contamination, of course, and natural gas has been coming up in water from shallow wells since man first started drilling them.
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Ok, but, in the mean time, 'fracturing' what amounts to the earths crust can't be harmless. By definition, we're cracking what were pockets of fuel. It's not like we're tapping a keg down there and it all comes up through one spout.

Do you really trust we're getting honesty from either end of the argument?
 
Merlin99

Merlin99

Visualize whirled peas
PREMO Member
Larry Gude said:
Ok, but, in the mean time, 'fracturing' what amounts to the earths crust can't be harmless. By definition, we're cracking what were pockets of fuel. It's not like we're tapping a keg down there and it all comes up through one spout.

Do you really trust we're getting honesty from either end of the argument?
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If you don't have the prerequisite engineering background, you have to take the experts opinion. So far I've only seen one side trot out real experts, the other side usually goes for an emotional appeal.
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Merlin99 said:
If you don't have the prerequisite engineering background, you have to take the experts opinion. So far I've only seen one side trot out real experts, the other side usually goes for an emotional appeal.
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The side that is saying this is perfectly safe?
 
Ken King

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Larry Gude said:
Ok, but, in the mean time, 'fracturing' what amounts to the earths crust can't be harmless. By definition, we're cracking what were pockets of fuel. It's not like we're tapping a keg down there and it all comes up through one spout.

Do you really trust we're getting honesty from either end of the argument?
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Given that the crust is already fractured and continues to fracture as the various plates continuously move over, under, and around one another, how much damage do these "man-made" fractures really cause?
 
Gilligan

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Larry Gude said:
Ok, but, in the mean time, 'fracturing' what amounts to the earths crust can't be harmless.
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It "can't" be? Why not?

Meanwhile, I received a copy of the FERC Environmental Assessment for the Cove Point project in Friday's mail. Looking forward to reading in while I'm traveling later this week.
 
SamSpade

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Even without being an expert, there's something weird to me about believing that a well dug a few hundred feet down is being contaminated by a process being done a couple MILES down. Most of the faucet on fire things I've seen happened to the same well water before anyone had ever heard of fracking.
 
Gilligan

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
SamSpade said:
Even without being an expert, there's something weird to me about believing that a well dug a few hundred feet down is being contaminated by a process being done a couple MILES down. Most of the faucet on fire things I've seen happened to the same well water before anyone had ever heard of fracking.
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That.
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
SamSpade said:
Even without being an expert, there's something weird to me about believing that a well dug a few hundred feet down is being contaminated by a process being done a couple MILES down. Most of the faucet on fire things I've seen happened to the same well water before anyone had ever heard of fracking.
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OK, but, what also should give great pause is that the 'under world' is not static. Everything moves. Water comes to the surface. Oil is lighter than water. It makes intuitive sense that 'fracking' is not some benign, harmless operation. So, it becomes a question of cost/benefit analysis and risk assessment. Fracking, clearly, is messing things up. Is it worth it?

Heck, a decade ago, fracking proponents made the argument that the potential damage and contamination would make more than enough money to make it a very small and worth it cost to just ship in drinking water to affected people. That's an admission and a justification.
 
kwillia

kwillia

n/a
Larry Gude said:
OK, but, what also should give great pause is that the 'under world' is not static. Everything moves. Water comes to the surface. Oil is lighter than water. It makes intuitive sense that 'fracking' is not some benign, harmless operation. So, it becomes a question of cost/benefit analysis and risk assessment. Fracking, clearly, is messing things up. Is it worth it?

Heck, a decade ago, fracking proponents made the argument that the potential damage and contamination would make more than enough money to make it a very small and worth it cost to just ship in drinking water to affected people. That's an admission and a justification.
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I agree with you, Larry. Case in point is the frequent farting the earth is currently doing in Siberia due to permafrost thawing. :ohwell:
 
MMDad

MMDad

Lem Putt
Larry Gude said:
Fracking, clearly, is messing things up.
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Even the EPA will only go so far as to say that there may possibly be a chance of something being messed up. In more than 50 years that fracking has been used, there have been a total of zero documented cases of groundwater being contaminated.

How can you say that it is clear?
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
MMDad said:
Even the EPA will only go so far as to say that there may possibly be a chance of something being messed up. In more than 50 years that fracking has been used, there have been a total of zero documented cases of groundwater being contaminated.

How can you say that it is clear?
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I suppose it's the opposite of saying "drilling into the earth, pumping stuff down in there specifically to 'frack' stuff is harmless because the government says so".

It's just one of those things that, innately, you say to yourself, well, I do, "Well, maybe it can be done but, there seems to be some pretty obvious reason to be concerned".

Is the risk manageable? Maybe so. Is it worth it? Maybe so.
 
MMDad

MMDad

Lem Putt
Larry Gude said:
I suppose it's the opposite of saying "drilling into the earth, pumping stuff down in there specifically to 'frack' stuff is harmless because the government says so".

It's just one of those things that, innately, you say to yourself, well, I do, "Well, maybe it can be done but, there seems to be some pretty obvious reason to be concerned".

Is the risk manageable? Maybe so. Is it worth it? Maybe so.
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Of course there's risk. There's risk in everythign. But risk does not equate to "clearly messing things up."

And if you think that EPA wouldn't shut down fracking if they could then you haven't been paying attention to what they do.
 
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