Free Will vs. Predestination

[slotted]

That's the good part. I don't have to prove anything. I believe in God and don't have to say anything or do anything to prove his exsistence. :shrug:

I'm not asking you to prove God. In order for this discussion to work, we are assuming that he exists.

So, assuming that God exists, do you personally think that God has elected/predestined some to be his children (regenerate) and some to reject him. Or does your faith line up more with the whosoever will view point? What particular verses in scripture allow you to come to your conclusion?

 

[slotted]

Free will.

Bustem',
Is this your personal belief, or are you saying that you think the Bible is more geared towards free will?

 

[slotted]

http://members.aol.com/twarren13/account.html
No, children do not go to hell, neither do mentally handicapped. This is my belief. My faith. I am entitled to it and embrace it.

Camily, I glanced at your link, not having much time to read it right now, but it doesn't seem to support your postition. Am I missing something?

 

[camily]

Camily, I glanced at your link, not having much time to read it right now, but it doesn't seem to support your postition. Am I missing something?

Just saying that there is age of consent. Depends on each individual, not a set age. My daughter has accepted Christ and been baptized so she has reached HER age of consent.

 

[slotted]

Just saying that there is age of consent. Depends on each individual, not a set age. My daughter has accepted Christ and been baptized so she has reached HER age of consent.

Did you read your link? I suggest you read it again.

 

[camily]

Did you read your link? I suggest you read it again.

Maybe your right! lol
I looked at the verses and skimmed the article. My point is that no, I do not believe that a baby goes to hell, I do not believe if any of my children die they go to hell, not right now at least. Now, if they are heathens in their teens, then possibly. I am NOT an expert and probably don't agree with alot the church states. I have my faith and that is good ebough for me. I figure, if I am wrong, then there is nothing to worry about because when I die, I'm dead, but if I am right, I sure will be glad I beilieved!

 

[Bustem' Down]

Bustem',
Is this your personal belief, or are you saying that you think the Bible is more geared towards free will?

Well, since were saying that god exsists, I was raised mormon and a foundation of thier dogma is that god granted free will to man. Our whole earthly expierence is a test. Adam's transgression in the Garden of Evil was an expression of free will. God forbade him to eat of the fruit, but he still had the choice. If we didn't have free will, there would be no termptation.

 

[slotted]

Well, since were saying that god exsists, I was raised mormon and a foundation of thier dogma is that god granted free will to man. Our whole earthly expierence is a test. Adam's transgression in the Garden of Evil was an expression of free will. God forbade him to eat of the fruit, but he still had the choice. If we didn't have free will, there would be no termptation.

Unless God predestined you to be tempted...

I have a meeting, I'll get back to this later.

 

[slotted]

Exodus 7:1-3 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. 2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land. 3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.


Once again I ask, did Pharaoh have a free will when God hardened Pharaoh's heart? Could he have decided not to harden his own heart?

 

[MysticalMom]

On the subject of Free Will vs Prordination One.I'm not a Christian. And Two. I believe I shape my own destiny. But we're talking Christians here and their bible. I do know the bible says this (among other things I don't have time to look up right now):Ephesians 1:11, "We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

As for the Pharaoh story. Supposedly the pharaoh had a choice in that he could have chosen to humble himself before this god and NOT have his heart hardened. But his only choice was to go against all he believed in (and remember Pharaoh WAS a god to his people) and humble himself in front of a god he did not believe in so really it was no choice. And If this god hardened Pharaoh's heart, by what right did this god continue to punish him? If Pharaoh had no free will, how could he be held responsible for his behavior?

Good question. It's quite the conundrum.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Exodus 7:1-3 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. 2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land. 3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.


Once again I ask, did Pharaoh have a free will when God hardened Pharaoh's heart? Could he have decided not to harden his own heart?

But that's Old Testement and in reality Judaism. The Isrealites were God's chosen people and all others basically just animals in thier eyes. The Israelites had free will because god's favor towards them was a reflection of thier choices. If they were not worshipful enough, god would turn his back to them.

 

[slotted]

Okay, NT.

Romans 9:11-21 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


You could try searching the Bible for preordained, elect, election, etc...

 

[Bustem' Down]

Okay, NT.

Romans 9:11-21 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


You could try searching the Bible for preordained, elect, election, etc...

So if your preordained to sin against god, what's our purpose?

 

[slotted]

So if your preordained to sin against god, what's our purpose?

According to the Bible, the purpose is to glorify God.

 

[Bustem' Down]

According to the Bible, the purpose is to glorify God.

But I don't have a choice, god made me an atheist then.


On a side note, that word is a little inaccurate. I believe in theology, it does exsist, shouldn't we really be called adeists?

 

[slotted]

But I don't have a choice, god made me an atheist then.

That's why the debate is free will vs. predestination.

On a side note, that word is a little inaccurate. I believe in theology, it does exsist, shouldn't we really be called adeists?

Never really thought about it, but makes sense to me. Maybe you can coin the word?

 

[Bustem' Down]

Never really thought about it, but makes sense to me. Maybe you can coin the word?

Sweet, I've finally made my mark on society.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Now, if god exists, and he is Omniscient and Omnipotent, I think it would be safe to say, that based on the facts presented, we have free will. But, God can interfere into the lives of man, as is his perogotive, and suspend that free will as he chooses. For example, Moses chose of free will to follow God, but in order for God's people to be released, God suspened the free will of Rameses in order to get the final outcome. Am I making sense?

 

[PJay]

 

[slotted]

Now, if god exists, and he is Omniscient and Omnipotent, I think it would be safe to say, that based on the facts presented, we have free will. But, God can interfere into the lives of man, as is his perogotive, and suspend that free will as he chooses. For example, Moses chose of free will to follow God, but in order for God's people to be released, God suspened the free will of Rameses in order to get the final outcome. Am I making sense?

Please use scripture to back up this position, not just speculation. How do I know that Moses had a free choice to follow God?