GAO decision, withholding Ukraine aid was illegal

PsyOps

Pixelated
he is being impeached for this very issue. What other process can you possibly expect? This is just one more piece of evidence that shows how trumps actions broke the law.

Don't you find it odd that the GAO just now, that the impeachment papers have been sent over, they come out wish this? The Whistleblower came out in July. Nearly 7 months, and at the very moment the senate begins their trial, the GAO releases this report.

I have my doubts the GAO report will even been entertained during the trial. It's already been scrutinized as questionable because Trump did release the money before the deadline, and Zelensky is on record as stating he was never pressured by Trump to provide anything for that money.

I'll default to your own line of thinking: Just because the GAO says so, doesn't make it true,
 
Last edited:

CPUSA

Well-Known Member
The law says the President cannot hold Congressionally-approved funds for policy reasons. Period.
You mean, in the same way Obama held funds from Ukraine until Biden told him to release them?
It's what he did. Period.
Again...like Obama did...
There's a reason even OMB staffers were concerned (and even one lawyer quit because he didn't want to be involved with illegal acts).
Yes...because they are Liberal hacks, devoted to destroying America....your heroes...

I don't know why this is even remotely a discussion. Congress, and only Congress, is tasked with the purse. Not the President. It's an absolute tenant of our system and Constitution and it's a shame the right is simply shrugging this off as some minor stretch of power.
Please show me the post where you are condemning Obama for this...until then STFU...
 

Barabbas

Active Member
It's 100% clear it was held. Nothing says a hold is only a hold if money goes past the spending deadline.

It's equally clear it was issued. Nothing says it must be provided prior to the due date.

If it's 100% clear it was held, what was the date they held it past? MidnightRider says it was when the DoD wrote a letter - so did it have to be that same day they received the letter? Within a week of the letter? Within a month of the letter?

You know why you can't give me a date that it was held? Because it wasn't held, it was paid before the due date.

There's a reason Congress had to re-appropriate the tens of million of dollars that didn't get spent the prior year.
This would not have been that money, so I am not sure to what you are referring.
 

CPUSA

Well-Known Member
It's 100% clear it was held. Aaaannddddd...it's 100% clear it was released in a timely manner...BEFORE Sept 30...Intelligence escapes you

Nothing says a hold is only a hold if money goes past the spending deadline.
And nothing says a crime was committed since they got our money that was promised to them
There's a reason Congress had to re-appropriate the tens of million of dollars that didn't get spent the prior year.
There's a reason people look at you with pity, then laugh at you sardonically...
 

Barabbas

Active Member
Congress, and only Congress, is tasked with the purse. Not the President. It's an absolute tenant of our system and Constitution and it's a shame the right is simply shrugging this off as some minor stretch of power.
Really? I've heard this many times, but it seems to me the president has an equal voice in the purse, as he must sign their desires into law. If he doesn't, they do have the ability to override him, but that kind of takes the whole "and only Congress" out of the issue since he really is involved.

They also must have the money obligated by the executive branch for things like this.

In this case, the law they wrote and the president signed said the president, through his offices, must "provide assistance, including training; equipment; lethal assistance; logistics support, supplies and services; sustainment; and intelligence support to the military and national security forces of Ukraine.” The value placed on that was $250,000,000. That does not mean to write a check. That does not mean to NOT write a check. That means that DoD had the authority to use up to $250,000,000 in support of that effort. And, that effort must begin in FY2019. In FY2019, that effort began.

The rest is political opinion, policy opinion, priority opinion, and execution opinion. As the chief policy, priority, and execution officer, the president establishes those things.

You can, and have, argued that it should have been faster. What you can't do it provide me documentation of a date that it should have been that is before 30 September, because no such date exists in any documentation.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
It's equally clear it was issued. Nothing says it must be provided prior to the due date.

If it's 100% clear it was held, what was the date they held it past? MidnightRider says it was when the DoD wrote a letter - so did it have to be that same day they received the letter? Within a week of the letter? Within a month of the letter?

You know why you can't give me a date that it was held? Because it wasn't held, it was paid before the due date.


This would not have been that money, so I am not sure to what you are referring.

The action of a hold is still a hold. Period.

The President held the aide for months and months. When he released it, there was not enough time to release all the funds and Congress was forced to re-appropriate it in FY2020.

Had the aide been released when the OMB initially notified Congress, there would be no need to re-appropriate the money that didn't make it out due to Trump's hold.

Here's the timeline.
  1. Dec. 2017 Trump approved aid to Ukraine and signed into law the 2019 spending bill that included $250 million (in DoD funds) to Ukraine in Sept. 2018. He signed another law in February 2019 that included another $141 million (in State Dept. funds).
  2. Not long after, on Feb. 28, Congress is notified that the Pentagon will release the first half of their aid package to Ukraine.
  3. In April, Zelensky becomes President.
  4. On May 3, Trump and Zelenksy talk, including Trump talking about the "Russia hoax" (i.e. the intel comunities assertion that Russia intervened in 2016 to help him get elected.
  5. May 14, Trump blocks Pence from going to Zelensky's inauguration and sends Rick Perry, Kurt Volker, and Gordon Sondland instead. "The Three Amigos". These guys, along with Giuliani, began a campaign to pressure Zelensky on the Burisma investigation.
  6. May 23, Congress is notified that Ukraine has taken enough steps to root out corruption to warrant the aid disbursement.
  7. That same day, Trump meets with Perry, Volker, and Sondland and tells them they should "talk to Rudy" about Ukraine policy.
  8. June 18, 2018, DoD announces plans to release the aid.
  9. June 19, Trump repeats his Crowdstrike conspiracy theory on Hannity.
  10. June 21, the State Dept says they'll release their aid also.
  11. July 3, OMB blocks the State Dept.
  12. July 10 Sondland tells Ukraine that they must conducto the Burisma investigations before Trump will meet with Zelensky.
  13. July 12, All Ukraine aid is blocked at Trump's direct request.
  14. July 18 OMB tells multiple agencies that Trump withheld aid without explanation.
  15. July 19, Sonland tells Zelensky himself that he must start the Burisma investigations.
  16. July 23 and 26, defense officials raise concenrs about the legality of withholding the aid.
  17. July 25, Volker tells a Zelensky aide that Zelensky must announce the investigations if wants to visit DC. Zelensky and Trump talk and Zelensky says Ukraine is almost ready to by more missiles. Trump immediately says "I would like you to do us a favor though" and says he wants an investigation into Burisma/Biden.
  18. August 2019, embassy officials have concerns about the aid status when talking with Vindman and Croft.
  19. Aug. 9, OMB is notified that withholding the aid may be illegal.
  20. Aug. 12, a whistblower complaint is filed.
  21. During that same time, Volker and Sondland and Giuliani draft a statenment for Zelensky about the investigations.
  22. Mid August Bolton and Trump meet. Bolton asks Trump to resume the aid, Trump says no, and Bolton resigns Sept. 10.
  23. Aug. 28, a Poltico article is published about the withheld aid.
  24. Aug 30, Sondland tells Sen. Johnson that he thinks the reason for the withheld aid was the investigations. Trump privately confirmed that reason to Johnson the next day.
  25. Sept 1 Sondland tells Yermak (a top Zelensky aide) that unless Zelensky made a public statement about the investigations, the aid was unlikely to come.
  26. Early Sept Zelensky makes an appointment to appear on CNN to make the statement.
  27. Sept 10, Schiff demands to see the WB complaint.
  28. Sept 11, the aid is released.
  29. Sept 18/19 Zelensky cancels the interview.
  30. Sept 30 is the deadline for federal spending. $35 million of the total Ukraine aid was still not disbursed but the deadline was extended.

I know you want to argue that because it made it out on time, that all is good. But a hold is a hold is a hold. Regardless if it happens, then doesn't, within the time frame allotted. This is the GAO's legal opinion. This is the law. The money was withheld to pursue Trump's policy objectives. This is not a permissible reason to delay such spending under the relevant law.

A foreign policy decision is what Trump and his supporters have argued is the sole reason he held the aide.
 

Clem72

Well-Known Member
Do I need to capitalize, bold, italicize, and change the color of the word "if" to make the point any clearer (not to you, in general)?

Well aren't you the f#cking expert. You clearly missed my point, yet accuse me of not understanding yours? Did you pull that 30 September number directly from the State Department Memorandum of Understanding with the Ukraine? Or did you get it from a news site which stated it was the "deadline" or "funding date". My point was that the news often doesn't know the intracasies of how government (or any other sufficiently complicated system) works, and may have been told that funding had obligation requirement by 30 September and took that to mean this was the official promised funding date, where the OMB may be referrencing a specific date that funding was promised in the MOU.

This was just a theory, but one that I feel is plausible based on past experience with the way the Feds fund contracts, FMS cases, and State Department directed Grant funding (which is what this is).

And to be clear, this is completely besides any issues of a hold or what the president is or is not allowed to do, all of which I don't give a shet about.

So do I need to capitalize or italicize or otherwise make my point clearer for you, imbecile?
 

Barabbas

Active Member
The action of a hold is still a hold. Period.

The President held the aide for months and months.

How many months? "Months and months" says at least four month, but I'm looking for the date it was first "held", and whether or not there needed to be funds expended by that time. Where is the documentation that shows the funds must have been obligated by "X" date?

When he released it, there was not enough time to release all the funds and Congress was forced to re-appropriate it in FY2020.

What color was the money? There are different colors of money that may be spent over different numbers of years.

Had the aide been released when the OMB initially notified Congress, there would be no need to re-appropriate the money that didn't make it out due to Trump's hold.

Was it required at that date? What document, what law, shows that it must have been obligated by that date? Was that date already a "hold" on the money, because it should have been sooner?

Or, did the law say 30 September, and anything before 30 September was within the timeframe of the law?

Here's the timeline.
  1. Sept. 28, 2018, Congress passes and the president signs Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2019, Pub. L. No. 115-245, div. A, title IX, § 9013, 132 Stat. 2981, 3044–45. This authorizes money to be spent for Ukraine.


























  2. Sept 11, the aid is released.

I know you want to argue that because it made it out on time, that all is good. But a hold is a hold is a hold. Regardless if it happens, then doesn't, within the time frame allotted.

I modified your timeline to extract the "nifty" information, and put in the "applicable" information. While the rest really is nifty, it has nothing to do with what the law requires.

This is the GAO's legal opinion. This is the law.

Those two things are really just not synonymous. I'm sure you must understand that.

Until you can show me where in the law it states the money was due prior to 30 September, you really have a great debate point for arguing who you like to execute laws, but not really whether or not the law is being executed. You could even attempt to argue whether or not the law was "faithfully" executed, but you really have no argument as to whether the law was executed when the law says, "you can use this much money starting before 9/30", and money was started to be used before 9/30.

The money was withheld to pursue Trump's policy objectives. This is not a permissible reason to delay such spending under the relevant law.

Yet, in fact, the money was not withheld. You can argue honestly that it was delayed from when it could have been obligated, but not that it was withheld since the facts show the money was not withheld beyond the date of required obligation.

A foreign policy decision is what Trump and his supporters have argued is the sole reason he held the aide.

Yet, he never withheld the money. He may have delayed it, but it was not withheld from the legally-required time of obligation.
 

Barabbas

Active Member
Well aren't you the f#cking expert.

No, I simply can read.

You clearly missed my point, yet accuse me of not understanding yours?

Nope. I specifically said, "not you".

Did you pull that 30 September number directly from the State Department Memorandum of Understanding with the Ukraine? Or did you get it from a news site which stated it was the "deadline" or "funding date".

The appropriations law.

My point was that the news often doesn't know the intracasies of how government (or any other sufficiently complicated system) works, and may have been told that funding had obligation requirement by 30 September and took that to mean this was the official promised funding date, where the OMB may be referrencing a specific date that funding was promised in the MOU.

MOUs are not laws, and unless it is part of a treaty approved by the senate it is not enforceable like a law.

This was just a theory, but one that I feel is plausible based on past experience with the way the Feds fund contracts, FMS cases, and State Department directed Grant funding (which is what this is).

And to be clear, this is completely besides any issues of a hold or what the president is or is not allowed to do, all of which I don't give a shet about.

So do I need to capitalize or italicize or otherwise make my point clearer for you, imbecile?
You have a point?
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Until you can show me where in the law it states the money was due prior to 30 September

The budget authority rests with Congress in this case. Since Congress said the DoD must notify them within 15 days of distributing funds, that's the deadline. In this case, July 25. Since the OMB delayed and withheld the money slated to be dispersed on July 25, that's a violation of the ICA.

(b) Consistency with legislative policy
Deferrals shall be permissible only—

(1) to provide for contingencies;
(2) to achieve savings made possible by or through changes in requirements or greater efficiency of operations; or
(3) as specifically provided by law.

No officer or employee of the United States may defer any budget authority for any other purpose.

A deferral is denied by:
(1) "deferral of budget authority" includes—

(A) withholding or delaying the obligation or expenditure of budget authority
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title2/chapter17B&edition=prelim



This was all in the report. The DoD notified Congress that they were going to distribute the aide. That was on May 23.

DOD was required to notify Congress 15 days in advance of any obligation of the USAI funds....On May 23, 2019, DOD provided this certification to Congress

OMB was supposed to start dispersing the money on July 25, but:
On July 25, 2019, OMB issued the first of nine apportionment schedules with footnotes withholding USAI funds from obligation. OMB Response, 1–2. This footnote read: “Amounts apportioned, but not yet obligated as of the date of this reapportionment, for the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative (Initiative) are not available for obligation until August 5, 2019, to allow for an interagency process to determine the best use of such funds. Based on OMB’s communication with DOD on July 25, 2019, OMB understands from the Department that this brief pause in obligations will not preclude DOD’s timely execution of the final policy direction. DOD may continue its planning and casework for the Initiative during this period.”

They did it over and over again until Trump told them to release the funds. That's explained on page 2 and 3. A total of $214 million was held by the OMB.
According to OMB, approximately $214 million of the USAI appropriation was withheld as a result of these footnotes.

The obligation was to disperse funds on July 25. The OMB withheld and delayed those disbursements multiple times. The reasoning they provided did not comply with the few deferral exemptions in the ICA.
The ICA authorizes the deferral of budget authority in a limited range of circumstances: to provide for contingencies; to achieve savings made possible by or through changes in requirements or greater efficiency of operations; or as specifically provided by law. 2 U.S.C. § 684(b). No officer or employee of the United States may defer budget authority for any other purpose. Id


Funds appropriated to executive agencies are apportioned by OMB. Executive agencies must submit an apportionment request to OMB at least 40 days before the start of the fiscal year or within 15 days of the enactment of the appropriations act. OMB then determines how executive agency funds will be apportioned, generally by fiscal quarter or by project. OMB may also apportion multi-year and no-year funds for a period longer than one fiscal year, provided that an apportionment is made at the beginning of each fiscal year.

Once funds are apportioned by OMB, executive agencies determine how to allocate and suballocate those funds amongst the programs, projects, and activities that fall within the scope of each apportionment. While executive agencies may have legal discretion to determine how to allocate the funds available to them, they are also legally obligated to execute spending legislation as enacted.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42633.pdf
 

nutz

Well-Known Member
This is why you shouldn't ignore threads that paint Trump in a bad light by default.

The thread below spells it out and shows AG Barr is actively trying to hide this information from the public.

But you decided to ignore it.


https://forums.somd.com/threads/unredacted-emails-leaked.351532/

The link in that thread goes over everything. It's posted below, again, also. Be sure to reads the associated links in that as well.




https://www.justsecurity.org/67863/...ts-reveal-extent-of-pentagons-legal-concerns/


https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-con...c_paoletta_to_gao_gc_armstrong-2019.12.11.pdf

This info was mentioned in more than one testimony during Impeachment hearings. Again, you didn't want to believe that either.

https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ukraine
-clearinghouse-cooper_opening_statement-2019.11.20.pdf


This info is not new, either. Trump himself said he held the aide up back in September.

I heard and she said do not equal the President ordered. I havent ignored anything. Im still waiting for someone to provide actual evidence.
 

Barabbas

Active Member
The budget authority rests with Congress in this case. Since Congress said the DoD must notify them within 15 days of distributing funds, that's the deadline. In this case, July 25.
The law says July 25? The law says "if informed, that starts a clock"?
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
I havent ignored anything.

Only Trump's own words, OMB's admission, Mulvaney's own admission that Trump directed him to hold the aide, the OAG report saying as much, congressional testimony, etc. :lol:


OMB noted that the President’s direction via the Chief of Staff in early July was to suspend security assistance to Ukraine including by blocking the $115 [Foreign Military Financing] congressional notification and by halting execution of the $250M FY19 USAI programs.

On Aug. 29, Chewning let McCusker know:

"Sec State and Sec Def will discuss with POTUS tomorrow. We should wait on communicating anything more privately.”
On Aug. 30, after the meeting with the president took place, Duffey told McCusker,

Clear direction from POTUS to hold.” He let her know that he’d soon be sending new paperwork extending the hold.
https://www.justsecurity.org/67863/...ts-reveal-extent-of-pentagons-legal-concerns/

For FY 2019, Congress appropriated $250 million to the Department of Defense (DOD) for the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative (USAI).1 On June 19, 2019, OMB learned that the President had asked about DOD's plans for USAI. At that time, 0MB began discussions with DOD regarding DOD's plans for obligating the USAI funds. In response to the Administration's directive that USAI funds not be obligated for Ukraine pending a policy decision
https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-con...c_paoletta_to_gao_gc_armstrong-2019.12.11.pdf

This info was mentioned in more than one testimony during Impeachment hearings. Again, you didn't want to believe that either.
...I heard that the President had directed the Office of Management and Budget to hold the funds...
https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-con...house-cooper_opening_statement-2019.11.20.pdf

This info is not new, either. Trump himself said he held the aide up back in September.


 

Barabbas

Active Member
Only Trump's own words, OMB's admission, Mulvaney's own admission that Trump directed him to hold the aide, the OAG report saying as much, congressional testimony, etc. :lol:





https://www.justsecurity.org/67863/...ts-reveal-extent-of-pentagons-legal-concerns/


https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-con...c_paoletta_to_gao_gc_armstrong-2019.12.11.pdf

This info was mentioned in more than one testimony during Impeachment hearings. Again, you didn't want to believe that either.

https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-con...house-cooper_opening_statement-2019.11.20.pdf

This info is not new, either. Trump himself said he held the aide up back in September.



All nifty stuff.

The DoD notification does NOT start a clock.

The funds were provided in the timeline required by law.

It COULD have been faster, and that's really nifty to know, but it doesn't change anything about the reality of legality.
 

BOP

Well-Known Member
he is being impeached for this very issue. What other process can you possibly expect? This is just one more piece of evidence that shows how trumps actions broke the law.


so you are just going to ignore all the testimony from OBM about how this decision flowed direct
Except for the pesky little fact that they were trying to impeach him for Russia (or hookers, or something) before this hearsay fell into their laps.
 
Top