Gas Problem solved...

[Larry Gude]

Absolutely...

Maryland rocked with stills during Prohibition, the eastern shore was riddled with them. ->"Rumrunners of the Chesapeake"


This sounds good in theory but, in order for this to work completely, the price of the corn per bushel has to be more than the cost to produce it. You know as a nurseryman the costs of equipment, maintenance, fuels and property. I'm not saying these are insurmountable but there has to be viable solutions. Short term solutions could be 0-.5% loans for equipment purchases, reduction in land taxes for land used only for the production of corn, sugar beets and or cane. Low rate long term loans for land purchases, and forgiveness of debts and/or back taxes...to an extent.

...it needs to work on it's own in fairly short order, but all great technologies started this way. In 1922 my grandfather needed a trench 6 foot by 6 foot, one mile long from the lake to the greenhouses. He hired a small army of men with shovels and pics because it was cheaper than renting one of the very new and very expensive tractors. That's unthinkable today yet the point stands; great ideas will come into their own.

As I've posted, it looks like the current cost per gallon is about $2.20, break even on everything you mention, or so, and it's only worth about $1.35 compared to gas, wholesale, at todays prices. The point is that if gas goes higher and ethanol cost goes down due to the economies of scale coupled with process improvements, we're really not that far from ethanol being a very, very viable alternative and eventual replacement.

 

[ylexot]

Yes, but the CO2 from ethanol production is "free"...ie already in the environment so its not as bad. Besides by growing more corn or sugar beets (or whatever) this CO2 is recaptured. The CO2 and other gases emitted from burning fossil fuels is locked up in those fuels, or in other words produces a net growth in the amount of CO2.

The CO2 from fermentation is not "already in the environment". It is a product of a chemical reaction...just like in combustion. True, it could be offset some by the growing of more plants.

Oh, and stop using my name.

 

[dck4shrt]

The CO2 from fermentation is not "already in the environment". It is a product of a chemical reaction...just like in combustion. True, it could be offset some by the growing of more plants.

Oh, and stop using my name.

The CO2 is already in the environment. The carbon is fixed from the atmosphere when the plants grow, and returned to the atmosphere upon combustion. Photosynthesis is: CO2 +2H2O ->CH2O + O2 +H2O

Carbon dioxide + 2 Waters gives carbohydrate, oxygen and water. Combustion of carbohydate will yield your CO2 back to the environment.

 

[ylexot]

The CO2 is already in the environment. The carbon is fixed from the atmosphere when the plants grow, and returned to the atmosphere upon combustion. Photosynthesis is: CO2 +2H2O ->CH2O + O2 +H2O

Carbon dioxide + 2 Waters gives carbohydrate, oxygen and water. Combustion of carbohydate will yield your CO2 back to the environment.

And where did the carbon and oxygen come from in oil? By that reasoning, ALL matter is "already in the environment". After all, matter can neither be created nor destroyed...right?

 

[dck4shrt]

And where did the carbon and oxygen come from in oil? By that reasoning, ALL matter is "already in the environment". After all, matter can neither be created nor destroyed...right?

The oil is a sink of carbon that was taken out of the atmosphere by plants and subsequently buried. It happens all of the time. It's just that we pulled the plug on the drain to the sink and are releasing alot of that CO2 back into the atmosphere. Hence, elevated CO2 levels in the atmosphere over the past 150 years. The carbon tied up in oil took millions of years to accumulate. We are releasing that back to the environment in one millionth of the time it took to bury it.
If your definition of the 'environment' includes 2 miles below the surface of the earth, fine, then carbon tied up in oil is part of the 'environment'.

 

[dck4shrt]

And where did the carbon and oxygen come from in oil? By that reasoning, ALL matter is "already in the environment". After all, matter can neither be created nor destroyed...right?

In other words, if you use crops, it is a null sum game in terms of carbon dioxide. CO2 pulled out of the atmosphere is quickly returned to the atmosphere, molecule for molecule. Got it?

 

[ylexot]

Got it. I guess I just think in a larger time/space frame.

 

[Tomcat]

Interesting thread, here's some links to sights I've found: http://www.ethanolfacts.com/index.html and http://www.ethanol.org/index.htm Last week I wrote to all 3 of our representatives in DC and only got 1 reply from Sen. Mikulski which mirrored the presidents press release on current oil prices. Sen. Sarbanes and Steny Hoyer did not respond. How many of you who are #####ing about gas prices have bothered to write your representatives? Here's another good link to track their doings: http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/

 

[Bruzilla]

Nice idea Larry, but it doesn't take into account the "Good For You" factor of agriculture. Remember back to the 1970s when chicken breast was the lowest price piece of chicken because it was so dry? Then came word that chicken breast is the healthiest piece of the chicken, and suddenly breast meat started selling for 4-5 times what the rest of the chicken cost. The minute you announce that you're going off the petroleum "standard" for corn based fuels, the price of corn is going to jump through the roof. You'll also have corn farmers demanding all kinds of federal and state "gimmies" that they never needed before.

The only difference between Middle Eastern oil shieks and mid-western corn farmers is one wears a towel on their head and one wears a John Deere cap.

 

[Larry Gude]

And what is wrong with John Deere?

Nice idea Larry, but it doesn't take into account the "Good For You" factor of agriculture. Remember back to the 1970s when chicken breast was the lowest price piece of chicken because it was so dry? Then came word that chicken breast is the healthiest piece of the chicken, and suddenly breast meat started selling for 4-5 times what the rest of the chicken cost. The minute you announce that you're going off the petroleum "standard" for corn based fuels, the price of corn is going to jump through the roof. You'll also have corn farmers demanding all kinds of federal and state "gimmies" that they never needed before.

The only difference between Middle Eastern oil shieks and mid-western corn farmers is one wears a towel on their head and one wears a John Deere cap.

...allow me to point out that the ONLY things I care about is consistency at the pump in terms of availabiliy and price and reducing foreign dependency.

If gas is gonna stay at $2 a gallon wholesale, ADM and other giants are gonna get in the game, just like the giants did with chicken, which, I'd like to point out, is rather consistent in price and availability.

 

[dck4shrt]

...allow me to point out that the ONLY things I care about is consistency at the pump in terms of availabiliy and price and reducing foreign dependency.

If gas is gonna stay at $2 a gallon wholesale, ADM and other giants are gonna get in the game, just like the giants did with chicken, which, I'd like to point out, is rather consistent in price and availability.

I'm not sure if you can have a nice, stable, easy-going market coupled with innovation and efficiency with a capitalist structure. Well, you can, but the capital will have to come from somewhere else.

 

[Larry Gude]

What's more stable?

I'm not sure if you can have a nice, stable, easy-going market coupled with innovation and efficiency with a capitalist structure. Well, you can, but the capital will have to come from somewhere else.

Irreplaceable Dinosaur juice from the far reaches of the globe, controlled by numerous nations not all particularly fond of us for anything more than a check, that also must be pumped out, delivered on super tankers and then refined and delivered again.

Or...

Go-go juice from a plant, grown here, that can be added or subtracted to in massive amounts that will reach market in no more than 12 month cycles which will allow for margins of crop error, regional weather issues and a nice buffer against unruly supply fluctuations and can be made by processes not a whole lot different from great grandpas still that will see no more than a combine, a dump truck and then a fuel truck on its way to your Hummer.

Pick one.

The key is to do this in a fashion that does not cause global economic chaos. If we ramp up over a 10 year period, even 20, that allows transitions for ship builders and owners, drillers, riggers, and the market at large, every person and entity that makes a living off of oil, to adjust in an acceptable process.

60 Minutes showed some farmers in the Midwest who had gotten together and are growing corn and distilling it into ethanol. If we do it, allow it to happen in relatively small, entrepreneurial fashions like this, a plant here, then one there, the stuff for sale in 5 states, then 10, then 50. First a billion gallons. Then 5 billion. Then 20 billion, slowly becoming a part of the landscape, then this can all happen in an under the radar type fashion that will not cause chaos and will allow major industries to adapt.

 

[dck4shrt]

Irreplaceable Dinosaur juice from the far reaches of the globe, controlled by numerous nations not all particularly fond of us for anything more than a check, that also must be pumped out, delivered on super tankers and then refined and delivered again.

Or...

Go-go juice from a plant, grown here, that can be added or subtracted to in massive amounts that will reach market in no more than 12 month cycles which will allow for margins of crop error, regional weather issues and a nice buffer against unruly supply fluctuations and can be made by processes not a whole lot different from great grandpas still that will see no more than a combine, a dump truck and then a fuel truck on its way to your Hummer.

Pick one.

The key is to do this in a fashion that does not cause global economic chaos. If we ramp up over a 10 year period, even 20, that allows transitions for ship builders and owners, drillers, riggers, and the market at large, every person and entity that makes a living off of oil, to adjust in an acceptable process.

60 Minutes showed some farmers in the Midwest who had gotten together and are growing corn and distilling it into ethanol. If we do it, allow it to happen in relatively small, entrepreneurial fashions like this, a plant here, then one there, the stuff for sale in 5 states, then 10, then 50. First a billion gallons. Then 5 billion. Then 20 billion, slowly becoming a part of the landscape, then this can all happen in an under the radar type fashion that will not cause chaos and will allow major industries to adapt.

Sounds like a good plan to me, but how do you restrain growth in the marketplace and still allow for innovation, creativity, and freedom for anyone to enter/exit that market? Gradual input to the marketplace, and protection of small entrepreneurial enterprises will require some serious government reg's/enforcement.

 

[Larry Gude]

I have no...

Sounds like a good plan to me, but how do you restrain growth in the marketplace and still allow for innovation, creativity, and freedom for anyone to enter/exit that market? Gradual input to the marketplace, and protection of small entrepreneurial enterprises will require some serious government reg's/enforcement.

...idea.

This is where Bruzillas desire to have the feds step into energy, like they pseudo do with electricity, has merit. Correction; MAY have merit.

Right now, I'm trying to get a rough idea if converting my greenhouse to growing 'gasoline' is a profitable idea or not because I could operate year round.

If sugar beets are the 'hi energy' crop, then maybe there is something with even more 'oomph' that I could grow on a continual basis and find a niche.

Why not grow it local, distil local and and distribute local, just like back in 1910?

Anyway, did you see the 60 Minutes thing?

 

[dck4shrt]

...idea.

This is where Bruzillas desire to have the feds step into energy, like they pseudo do with electricity, has merit. Correction; MAY have merit.

Right now, I'm trying to get a rough idea if converting my greenhouse to growing 'gasoline' is a profitable idea or not because I could operate year round.

If sugar beets are the 'hi energy' crop, then maybe there is something with even more 'oomph' that I could grow on a continual basis and find a niche.

Why not grow it local, distil local and and distribute local, just like back in 1910?

Anyway, did you see the 60 Minutes thing?

I guess you have to look at the tradeoff between time to harvest and yield as well, with a year round operation, to see how many harvests you can get out of the greenhouse with each crop.

Local commerce sounds great, but I think it depends on economies of scale. It might work for small and mid-sized towns in the Midwest (Des Moines, IA = the new Venezuelans ala 12 cent gasoline), but I'm sure there will have to be serious infrastructure (corporate investment) to get the Northeast corridor up and running.

I missed the 60 Minutes bit.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well the 60 minutes bit...

I guess you have to look at the tradeoff between time to harvest and yield as well, with a year round operation, to see how many harvests you can get out of the greenhouse with each crop.

Local commerce sounds great, but I think it depends on economies of scale. It might work for small and mid-sized towns in the Midwest (Des Moines, IA = the new Venezuelans ala 12 cent gasoline), but I'm sure there will have to be serious infrastructure (corporate investment) to get the Northeast corridor up and running.

I missed the 60 Minutes bit.

...is this group of corn farmers who are working together, growing the corn, owning and operating the still. I think they have some sort of federal law passed to help them get going and a subsidy, so they have a sort of protected market for awhile

You've heard that part of the current gas problem is the new requirement for X% of ethanol and it has to come from the US, not imported.

Again, $2.20 or so to produce, market value vs. gas of $1.35...if gas does work up to $4-5 a gallon and cost comes down...

 

[dck4shrt]

...is this group of corn farmers who are working together, growing the corn, owning and operating the still. I think they have some sort of federal law passed to help them get going and a subsidy, so they have a sort of protected market for awhile

You've heard that part of the current gas problem is the new requirement for X% of ethanol and it has to come from the US, not imported.

Again, $2.20 or so to produce, market value vs. gas of $1.35...if gas does work up to $4-5 a gallon and cost comes down...

Not if gas works up to $4-5, but when...

The tarriff's on Brazilian ethanol are one of the reasons why we just had a gas price spike, because the domestic ethanol producers (for whatever reason) couldn't produce enough in time for the switch over.

 

[Bruzilla]

Does this mean that Ted Kennedy is going to allow corn fields to be planted within sight of Hyannisport?

Sure, you can grow corn anywhere, but not in my backyard!

 

[2ndAmendment]

Sounds like a good plan to me, but how do you restrain growth in the marketplace and still allow for innovation, creativity, and freedom for anyone to enter/exit that market? Gradual input to the marketplace, and protection of small entrepreneurial enterprises will require some serious government reg's/enforcement.

I think if you let the market grow on its own without government involvement market forces will dictate the rate of growth. If oil interests see that bio-fuel is the wave of the future, they will jump in if they can. Tankers can transport alcohol as easily as oil. Refineries are just high tech stills. Pipelines can pump alcohol. They already pump different petroleum products; they are separated by water slugs. It might be tough on the guys with the wells in the desert. Corn, sugar cane, and sugar beets don't grow well in a desert. Oops, they get left behind, but turn about is fair play. The farmers had to buy their oil products for a long time. Payback is a b_____.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

Does this mean that Ted Kennedy is going to allow corn fields to be planted within sight of Hyannisport?

Sure, you can grow corn anywhere, but not in my backyard!

...you raise a valid point because we have some 900 million acres in farm production now, presumably all going to some market.

Will the grand moonshine program take over existing land, pushing out other crops, or, will we be seeing new production acres?