Geothermal Heat Pump in Southern Maryland

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

This does not address the installation as I read it. $30k to install over 30 years is about $180 a month.

Don't forget tax credit, though, for "going green".

I would probably say that, in my example of a huge house...geothermal heat will pay for itself in a shorter time period, and be a better investment, in comparison to a 2k square foot house...and forget it if you are one of those people that can't stay in one place for many years to come.

It does raise property value as well, as far as I read.

 

[SamSpade]

This does not address the installation as I read it. $30k to install over 30 years is about $180 a month.

There's another factor - I will have to replace it with *something*, soon. The first heat pump on the house is already over 20 years old. The second one is over 10 years old. Typical electric bill during the winter is over 500 a month, and it gets *worse* if it gets really cold.

Short answer - I *will* have to replace it anyway. So adding that in the equation, the answer is factor out the cost of a new ordinary system in any event. It's not dead yet, but it's so inefficient, the cost of keeping it is worse. Certainly worse than 180 a month.

Second - there are at least TWO credits available for the upgrade, one federal, one state. 2k from fed, up to 3k from state, although there's a waiting list.

There are also several configurations for installation, and I'm looking into which will give me the most bang for the buck. I'm also considering what the additional costs will be to replace our old beat up wood stove with a decent pellet insert.

There's also no chance in hell I'd finance in a new system without a substantial amount of cash on hand. Say, a good tax rebate check.

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

This does not address the installation as I read it. $30k to install over 30 years is about $180 a month.

Here is another interesting tidbit:

According to the Environmental Protection Agency, geothermal systems are the most energy efficient, cost-effective and environmentally clean heating/cooling systems available. A 1,500 square foot home in Colorado that uses a geothermal heat pump, averages energy costs of $1 a day. This includes all heating, cooling and hot water needs!

But I noticed later on in that page as well, they claim efficiency and cost-effectiveness, but it is based on a $7500 install and conveniently overlook the drilling cost of $10k-30k added to that

 

[Larry Gude]

Don't forget tax credit, though, for "going green".

I would probably say that, in my example of a huge house...geothermal heat will pay for itself in a shorter time period, and be a better investment, in comparison to a 2k square foot house...and forget it if you are one of those people that can't stay in one place for many years to come.

It does raise property value as well, as far as I read.

Those are all factors. There is no doubt that in terms of pure energy usage, it is a good alternative. All I am saying is each factor must be looked at and then added together to make the whole.

One of the things I find maddening about the left is they argue against tax cuts being a good thing time and time and time again, right up until it's something they want and then, viola, tax credits! The GOP does it as well, corporate welfare, ethanol, etc, but they, we tend to be more consistent on tax cuts being a good thing across the board for everybody and not just the pet project of the month.

If you remove the distortion of government intervention in something like this, then the market can function more cleanly and consumers can see for themselves the cost of a heat pump versus geothermal. As it is, the government, if this works, will end up subsidizing heat pump makers as an important part of the economy, just like Detroit!

 

[Larry Gude]

...

There's another factor - I will have to replace it with *something*, soon. The first heat pump on the house is already over 20 years old. The second one is over 10 years old. Typical electric bill during the winter is over 500 a month, and it gets *worse* if it gets really cold.

Short answer - I *will* have to replace it anyway. So adding that in the equation, the answer is factor out the cost of a new ordinary system in any event. It's not dead yet, but it's so inefficient, the cost of keeping it is worse. Certainly worse than 180 a month.

Second - there are at least TWO credits available for the upgrade, one federal, one state. 2k from fed, up to 3k from state, although there's a waiting list.

There are also several configurations for installation, and I'm looking into which will give me the most bang for the buck. I'm also considering what the additional costs will be to replace our old beat up wood stove with a decent pellet insert.

There's also no chance in hell I'd finance in a new system without a substantial amount of cash on hand. Say, a good tax rebate check.

You sound like a great candidate. I have a 200 year old farm house that I just put a total kick ass central heat and ac electric system in that cost me about $20,000 and it's running well under $200 a month electric bill, average over 18 months since it was installed.

I will cut an arm off if I have to do much work at all working with the government to get some tax credit. Makes me vomit. That's certainly foolish of me, but, I just can't stand being anymore part of government than I have to.

 

[red_explorer]

Continental

Stay away from Continental in PF. They installed a friend's geothermal heat pump, and after 2 years, and probably 30 service calls, it still isnt right, and his electric bills are through the roof.

 

[jwwb2000]

I do believe the CPCS (Chesapeake Public Charter School) has this type of heating

 

[Chain729]

We'll have to see over time. It's not unreasonable for the system to last, relatively maintenance free, for 20 or more years. In my business, pump quality can be fantastic. Some are JUNK. I think the piping is plastic for geo. I imagine there isn't much to maintaining the fluid quality.

Again, as I understand it, there is something like a 20 year payback in this area at stable electric prices in the $.10 kwh range or so. So, you're monthly savings go into paying off the equipment and install. After year 20, you're money ahead absent major repairs or replacements.

What I wonder is what happens if there is significant movement under ground over 20 years, or less, that could damage the piping. I don't know enough to know, but, obviously, that could be a MAJOR cost if you gotta dig it all up and replace it.

Because we, Southern Maryland, get electricity so cheap, "payback" is always a problem with any high cost "savings measure."

 

[Larry Gude]

Because we, Southern Maryland, get electricity so cheap, "payback" is always a problem with any high cost "savings measure."

What is your $ per kwh down there?

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

What is your $ per kwh down there?

I think this is the right page
http://www.pepco.com/_res/documents/md_schedule_r.pdf
It's a .pdf, showing .11, going up to .12 shortly.

 

[GWguy]

FWIW - I did go to the Home show in Baltimore, and there were 2 or 3 vendors that were advertising geothermal.

 

[Chain729]

What is your $ per kwh down there?

I think this is the right page
http://www.pepco.com/_res/documents/md_schedule_r.pdf
It's a .pdf, showing .11, going up to .12 shortly.

Yep, close enough. Just checked this month's bill; it's about 11.6.

 

[Bavarian]

I had geothermal system installed in new house in Chestnut Ridge in 1995, cost $12K more than air-source. Was installed by Winslow Pump & Well. Problem was that the system they installed did not hold up. First the coils in the upstairs heat exchanger leaked and even though I had been using Winters, they had a good geothermal tech, no longer there. I wound up buying water furnace from Tri-County Aire. Then the cube unit in basement, attached to upstairs, the compressor went, another replacement. A few years later, the compressor for the downstairs unit failed, I had a replacement compressor installed, a few years later, a coil rusted thru and wound up replacing basement unit with new Water Furnace. So, is it cost effective, doesn't seem so. But the comfort level is much higher than air source heat pump had in old house, warmer air.

It also produces hot water.

This is a closed loop system with seven weels drilled and the pipes go up and down. Added water at times, one tech said if leak, just attach a boiler valve to keep topped off.

Can't compare to cost of operation since only had geo-thermal in house.

BTW, SMECO's new load management switch does not work on geo units. Had them out to swap units so as to continue getting credit, tech said since they are so efficient, no switch. Just as well, he wanted to mount it outside. A big plus on geo is that all equipment in the house, no compressor outside, a big plus.

I think it is worth the cost for comfort.

 

[JoeMac]

I used to be in the HVAC business. I can clear up a lot of these questions.

Geothermal heat pumps are THE BEST HVAC system that money can buy hands down. Both in longevity and efficiency. I know some people say that they have had problems, this is usually improper installation. All of the equipment made today is pretty good stuff, kind of like autos.

There are several options as far as the geothermal wells or loops go. Wells is actually a misleading term. An open well or a well that pulls water from the aquifer and then dumps it back out somewhere, usually a drainage ditch is illegal in this area. These heat exchangers are closed loop systems that circulate a liquid through them, usually water mixed with methanol to prevent freezing.

The loops that are allowed are:

1. Vertical, usually 200' deep, 1 well per ton of cooling and are about $1,800 each, so if you need a 3 ton system you will need 3 wells, 1/2 tons get rounded up to the next highest ton, these are the most efficient closed loop

2. Horizontal, will need 1000' of pipe per ton, buried about 5-8' deep, costs vary because anyone with a backhoe can install them, not nearly efficient as vertical

3. Slinky, just like it sounds a coil of pipe buried 5-10' down, you will still need 1000' per ton, just much more compact, similar efficiency to the horizontal

4. Pond loop, a system that pulls in water from a drainage pond, circulates through the machine and then dumps it back, efficiency will not rival the vertical loop

The local authorities will not let you put a closed loop in tidal water or pull tidal water and return it so don't waste your time

The pipe used is a thick black pipe, it is a special pipe that can expand and contract a great deal due to the heat transfer. PVC will not work, again don't ask your contractor for PVC it will crack all up underground

I recommend geo to anyone staying in their house longer than 10 years. All of my calculations show about 10 years to be the payback --EXCEPT new construction your payback will be much sooner and it will make only several hundred dollars in your payment.

A general rule of thumb is $6,500 per ton installed, this usually does not include ductwork or loops. So if you needed a 3 ton system, $1,800 per well is $5,400 plus $6,500 times 3 tons of cooling is $19,500 which is $24,000. This is obviously an estimate and the company I worked for was kind of high so I am sure you can beat this.

One final word on how geo's work, the ground stays a constant 55-60. In the summer the unit will remove the heat in your house and dump it in the ground by way of the liquid heat transfer medium in the loops. This works much better than trying to dump heat in 80* plus air.

The winter is just the opposite, the unit will remove heat from the 55-60 degree earth and dump it in your house. This works much better that trying to remove heat from 30* air.

If you have any other questions, shoot. I will be glad to answer any.