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FISHTAIL

Coordinating the Truth
right, but this only works with the add-in of state and federal subsidies, and the requirement by the state that the energy company must not only buy power from these things, but they have to pay a stupid high rate for it too. Once those things go away, then it stops being profitable for the solar companies.

Exactly, this is exactly how they make their money. I did a whole bunch of research on this before I signed on with Solar City, but what you stated is exactly what they are doing. I'm doing a PPA, not a lease, which is the missing 3rd option from the post above. Lease, PPA, Purchase. They make their money by getting the tax credit for the system "purchase", collecting the SRECS (Solar Energy Credits...which are market driven) and charging you for the power that your roof produces. Even on the PPA you have the option to purchase outright anytime after year 5, which I presume is how long they figure it will take them to get their money back and make a profit on you.

I looked at a purchase, but there are to many risks involved. Your payback period is dependent on the SREC value which varies frequently and is designed to decrease as the number of people who go solar increases. Your also then responsible for the maintenance of the system, and those power inverters are not cheap, and they are typically the thing that fails in a solar system. So, since Solar City is profiting off of a set of laws and tax breaks that I'm already helping fund, I figure I might as well get something out of it..so I made sure I wasn't going to get screwed and signed up.

The deal is, you pay for all the power that comes off your roof, whether or not you use it. If you produce 1200kwh in a month, you pay 1200, even if your house only pulled 1000. But, that extra 200 gets pulled into the grid where SMECO sells it to some other guy, and that 200 goes into your "bank". This continues through summer, until you start producing less power from your roof than your house is using, and thus start pulling back from the grid again. As this begins, you start to chew into whatever you had "banked" while you were overproducing. If you still have a positive bank balance at the end of the billing year, you get a check from SMECO. The concept is called net metering.

The only reason you save any money doing this, is because the electrical rate you pay for power produced off the panels is less than what smeco charges. Solar City starts (or did when I signed on) at 10cents kwh. Smeco is 14. Solar City raises that rate every year by 2 or 3% (I forget, I'd have to check my contract) for the full length of the PPA. Even if SMECO never raises rates again, I will still save roughly 6k over the course of the 20 year ppa. If Smeco's rates increase at any time, the amount I'll save goes up. So Solar City assumes the SREC risk, deals with any maintenance of the system, and I get to save around 50 bucks a month on average for my electric bill. Not to mention that any shingles under the solar system aren't getting much wear, and in my case the entire system is on the back roof where nobody has to see it. It was basically a no lose situation for me, and so far I've been very happy with the setup (minus a little fuss over the first billing period or two while we got things worked out).

If anyone has any specific questions about it, PM me, I'll do what I can to answer it. I even wrote a small perl script to figure out what the savings/loss would be over the life of the PPA given SMECO's rate changes, Solar City's changes, and estimated system production vs usage per month. My Dad then converted that into a spreadsheet that graphed it, and also accounted for lost system productivity as the panels aged. I also have the contact information for a sales rep that IS knowledgeable and is not pushy at all. If I put you in contact with him (Wayne), he'll know right away to provide the extra information you need to plug into that spreadsheet, because I hand it to everyone I refer. Most folks save money, but some don't..so it's worth looking at.

Just educate yourself carefully before signing up, and read the fine print. As for the line workers...the system automatically shuts down if the grid goes down. I've been told that battery backups are on the way for MD, and may even be going with new systems now..you'd have to ask. If that's the case, the system can persist and run in the event of a power outage.
 

imaref

Active Member
SMECO is NOT 14 cents per kWh...

.0753 per kWh (May - September)
.0813 per kWh (October-April)
 
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Goldenhawk

Well-Known Member
SMECO is NOT 14 cents per kWh...

.0753 per kWh (May - September)
.0813 per kWh (October-April)
I wish I could sign up with your version of SMECO, because that sure isn't the rest of ours.

That may be the base rate. But when you add in all the other per-kWh costs, it is way higher than 8 cents. According to SMECO's own cost estimator it is about 13 cents per kWh for St Mary's, when factoring in all the taxes and fees and surcharges.

https://www.smeco.coop/account/residential-bill-calculator
 
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FISHTAIL

Coordinating the Truth
SMECO is NOT 14 cents per kWh...

.0753 per kWh (May - September)
.0813 per kWh (October-April)

Not right now it's not, but it was when I signed up. You also aren't counting the distribution charges, the empower md charges. The cost has gone down a touch since I signed on with solar, as it's now a little over 12 cents for me (your post just made me check my bill), but when I signed onto this program (over the winter rates) it was 14cents. You don't pay the distribution charges and such for solar..the rate is the rate. So those count against the SMECO cost when you are comparing. I'll have to fetch one of my solar bills too, but I think they are exempt from some of the taxes you pay when you use SMECO as well...not that those amount to much.

The point was the savings comes from the difference in electrical pricing, whatever that difference is. I'm not sure where Solar City starts their pricing now either, it may have lowered since I joined up. The only point I was trying to make there was that the reason you save money (and the only reason) is because the amount you pay Solar City per kWh is cheaper than the amount to pay smeco. The more power your solar panels produce, the more you save..for a while. Eventually you run the risk of the cost per kWh from Solar City exceeding SMECO's rate, at which point you will no longer be saving money each bill. How badly this impacts you depends on your system size relative to your use, but that same detriment is also what will front load your savings at the start of the PPA. Everyone's situation is different, so to decide if it's worth it you really need to run the numbers. And with a PPA the risk you assume isn't the life of the panels/inverter, but rather the cost differential between Solar City and SMECO. Your betting that your solar city rate will stay below your SMECO rate long enough to save you money for the life of the PPA.
 
H

Hodr

Guest
FISHTAIL:

How does that 3% yearly increase not kill you, are assuming that SMECO will also increase at the same rate or planning to purchase before compound interest destroys your profit margin?

You can purchase after 5 years, but will that be a pro-rated purchase? Does energy purchased count towards the system purchase? Is the system based off of the initial cost (minus tax credits) or based off of what an equivalent new install at that time would cost (assuming this would be much cheaper)?

I.E. do they say "After credits it cost us $20k to put in your system, system is currently operating at 90% of original spec, pay us $18K" or "An equivalent system that outputs X-KW (90% of whatever you originally installed) would cost $12k today, pay us $12k". And in either case do they give you credit for energy purchased (minus service calls/equipment upgrade or replacement/etc.)
 

FISHTAIL

Coordinating the Truth
FISHTAIL:

How does that 3% yearly increase not kill you, are assuming that SMECO will also increase at the same rate or planning to purchase before compound interest destroys your profit margin?

You can purchase after 5 years, but will that be a pro-rated purchase? Does energy purchased count towards the system purchase? Is the system based off of the initial cost (minus tax credits) or based off of what an equivalent new install at that time would cost (assuming this would be much cheaper)?

I.E. do they say "After credits it cost us $20k to put in your system, system is currently operating at 90% of original spec, pay us $18K" or "An equivalent system that outputs X-KW (90% of whatever you originally installed) would cost $12k today, pay us $12k". And in either case do they give you credit for energy purchased (minus service calls/equipment upgrade or replacement/etc.)

Good question. It will, eventually. When I signed up, SMECO was right about 14cents kWh. If that rate held, it would take 7 years for my PPA rate to match SMECO's. So almost half of the PPA contract, before the rates were equal. Beyond that point, again assuming no price increases from SMECO, I'd start to spend more on power. Very little at first, then more over time. Even in that scenario, I still save around 4-5k over the course of the entire 20 year contract because of all the savings up front. I figured the odds of SMECO's rates never going up again over the entire PPA period were not very good, especially since they are talking about closing that one power plant down here (chaulk point?) and eventually they'll have to adjust their rates to account for inflation. I'm also not confident on the 3% value, it may be less. All I remember was it was below the rate of inflation, I'd have to dig up my contract to see what it actually is. It may not be worth posting though, because they have likely changed things around since I signed on.

But, with the standard PPA, your banking on your rates staying below SMECO's. It's a risk. They now have a new PPA Type lease, where the money spent towards power does count towards ownership of the system. That plan was not available when I signed up or I would have gotten it (probably).

As for the pro-rated purchase price...unsure. The price is supposed to be fair market value of a used solar system with the same spec as mine, so probably something like you'd guessed above there. But once I actually buy it, the SREC's are mine to sell..and last time I looked they were ~250 per 1000kWh. For me, the break even point at which I would be looking seriously at buying it, to avoid the back end cost hit, is year 7. So a ways from now obviously. So far, my program I put together's estimate has been good..I've saved 50/mo on average since the install. Some months I've saved more, it all depends on how much I can rely on my panels. Unfortunately for me, our electrical usage has gone up, not down, as my MIL is watching the baby at the house now. It used to be the Nest would shut the A/C off when we weren't home, but now it runs all day.

Also, a friend just sent me this:
http://smeco.wattplan.com/

It's a nice tool, but only accounts for a traditional lease, cash purchase, and a standard loan. None of the PPA stuff. I knew a standard loan was a lose for me as soon as I looked at it, and this site confirmed that again when I checked it just now.
 
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