MMDad
Lem Putt
If it's not there, so be it. Maybe Marie can come up with something to back her post up. All I asked was scripture that backs up her statement that Christ would not sanction this observance.
Gruesome crucifixions mark PI Easter ritual.......
- Thread starter nhboy
- Start date
If it's not there, so be it. Maybe Marie can come up with something to back her post up. All I asked was scripture that backs up her statement that Christ would not sanction this observance.
Try this on for size.
Flagellation is certainly self-abasement and the Bible instructs not to delight in it.
mAlice
professional daydreamer
I've posted scripture to support not wearing a cross, too. So this doesn't really impress me.
MMDad
Lem Putt
But isn't that the same thing as Lent, where people intentionally abase themselves? Or fasting?
Abasement usually means voluntarily yielding up dignity or prestige. Isn't that what priests do with by impoverishing themselves? Isn't that we all do by humbling ourselves?
I don't get the impression that these people are doing this in order to "delight in it." It appears that they do this in order to humble themselves and understand a fraction of what Christ went through.
I realize that not everyone agrees with their interpretation since I don't agree with it. But there's a huge difference between that and Marie's declaration that "Christ wouldn't sanction such a thing." Who is she to speak for Christ? Why can't she back it up in scripture?
Why does worship that is different have to be "wrong?"
No. Fasting is instructed. Abasement of all kinds is instructed against. There is a difference between humility and abasement.
God is a loving Father. God never wants us to hurt ourselves physically, emotionally, or spiritually.
I speak in tongues. I don't insist that other Christians must speak in tongues. Matter of fact, if I did, I would be in direct opposition to what the Bible says about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
The self-abasement of flagellation is contrary to scripture. It implies that Christ did not do it all and that the person can do something beyond what Jesus did by their own self torture. Self torture is something brought from many pagan cultures.
Fasting is actually good for you. Look it up. It has health benefits when done correctly.
Link, please.
MMDad
Lem Putt
So is Easter. Did you celebrate that Pagan holiday? Why is your pagan practice acceptable?
mAlice
professional daydreamer
Libby,
Its an excerts from the Westminister Confession of faith on the section on true worship.
It's a guide, but it certainly adds great clairity to doctrines that most Othrodox Christians embrace and dont teach any more.
Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org
On here we go.
Why does this always have to be a history lesson?
Yes, Easter has commonality with a pagan holiday as does Christmas. When the Church, there were no denominations, became the official religion of the Roman Empire, the Emperor needed to make it inclusive of all the other pagan religions of the Roman Empire. One way to do this was to take bits and pieces of those pagan religions and incorporate them into the Church thereby transforming the Church into a church. So Christmas is celebrated at the time of Saturnalia and Easter is celebrated at the time coincident with some other pegan religion.
Christians do not celebrate the pagan holiday; they celebrate the Christian holiday that happens to coincide with the time of the pagan celebration.
Do you have a birthday? Do you celebrate it? Do you think someone else has the same birth date? Do they celebrate your birthday? Do you celebrate theirs? No. You each celebrate your own birthdays but they happen to fall on the same day. Same concept.
I haven't seen the verse or verses you speak of. There are verses that say not to worship idols or symbols, but I don't worship a cross. I worship Jesus who died on a cross for me.
If you know of such a verse and it indeed says that I should not wear a cross, this cross will be off my neck as quickly as I can remove it.
MMDad
Lem Putt
I understand the history just fine. Eostre - notice how close the spelling is?
You acknowledge that bits and pices of the Pagan rituals were taken. How is that any different than what is happening in the PI?
Once again, why is your pagan ritual superior to theirs?
The celebration of Christmas and Easter does not conflict with scripture and are not pagan rituals. Flagellation does conflict with the Bible since it is self-abasement.
Personally, I don't care that they do this. It does not matter one bit to me. Jesus already did it all for me and for them and for you, if you accept Him. The Flagellation is unnecessary and does nothing for anyone including the person going through it.
As I said earlier I dont wear one!
What you didnt like the one I already gave you?
Besides your concious should tell you its wrong, to copy or cheapen the work done on the cross! Christains would call it Blasphemy.
Blasphemy (Greek blaptein, "to injure", and pheme, "reputation") signifies etymologically gross irreverence towards any person or thing worthy of exalted esteem. In this broad sense the term is used by Bacon when in his "Advancement of Learning" he speaks of "<!--stripped-->blasphemy against learning". St. Paul tells of being <!--stripped-->blasphemed (1 Corinthians 4:13) and the Latin Vulgate employs the word blasphemare to designate abusive language directed either against a people at large (2 Samuel 21:21; 1 Chronicles 20:7) or against individuals (1 Corinthians 10:30; Titus 3:2).
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (New King James Version)
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body<SUP>[a]</SUP> and in your spirit, which are God’s.
Driving Nails through your wrist, is not honnor God Or your body!
Ok well here is the scripture backing up what true worship is.
OF RELIGIOUS WORSHIP AND THE SABBATH DAY
Paragraph 1. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all; is just, good and does good to all; and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart and all the soul, and with all the might.1 But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God, is instituted by himself,2 and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imagination and devices of men, nor the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures.3
1 Jer. 10:7; Mark 12:33
2 Deut. 12:32
3 Exod. 20:4-6
Paragraph 3. Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one part of natural worship, is by God required of all men.8 But that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son,9 by the help of the Spirit,10 according to his will;11 with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love, and perseverance; and when with others, in a known tongue.12
8 Ps. 95:1-7, 65:2
9 John 14:13,14
10 Rom. 8:26
11 1 John 5:14
12 1 Cor. 14:16,17
Paragraph 5. The reading of the Scriptures,16 preaching, and hearing the Word of God,17 teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord;18 as also the administration of baptism,19 and the Lord's supper,20 are all parts of religious worship of God, to be performed in obedience to him, with understanding, faith, reverence, and godly fear; moreover, solemn humiliation, with fastings,21 and thanksgivings, upon special occasions, ought to be used in an holy and religious manner.22
16 1 Tim. 4:13
17 2 Tim. 4:2; Luke 8:18
18 Col. 3:16; Eph. 5:19
19 Matt. 28:19,20
20 1 Cor. 11:26
21 Esther 4:16; Joel 2:12
22 Exod. 15:1-19, Ps. 107
mAlice
professional daydreamer
I wasn't aware that you were the only person in this discussion.
You wouldn't be mildly self absorbed, would you?
MMDad
Lem Putt
I wasn't aware that you were the only person in this discussion.
You wouldn't be mildly self absorbed, would you?
Actually, I did ask her specifically.
I still don't see where there is scripture to back up Marie's view that her pagan rituals are okay, but other people's beliefs are wrong.
Nope sorry I gave you all I had in the first post.
If you want me to conceed it's up to interpretation fine, I will do so.
Common sense goes along way though!
Bravo! Nice Job!
mAlice
professional daydreamer
My bad...not reading every post. I do agree with your question, though.
"It's okay to interpret the bible my way."
MMDad
Lem Putt
Common sense? In a religion thread?
You do realize you just opened up a whole new can of worms, don't you?