Hebrews 10:26-27/Sola Fide

[onel0126]

I often use these verses in scripture among others to refute sola fide. For those who subscribe to this particular sola, share with me what you don't see in these verses that I do.

 

[Dondi]

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

What exactly do you see in these verses that support your claim?

 

[onel0126]

What exactly do you see in these verses that support your claim?

I equate Sola Fide with Luther's "Sin and sin boldly." The verses above says to me that there is more to faith alone....And please don't use the "if someone was really a believer, they would not sin....

 

[Dondi]

I equate Sola Fide with Luther's "Sin and sin boldly." The verses above says to me that there is more to faith alone....And please don't use the "if someone was really a believer, they would not sin....

I wasn't going to say that at all.

The fact is that everyone sins, even Christians, as stated in I John 1:8-9,

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

At what point does the passage in Hebrews take affect? Does this mean a Christian loses his salvation?

 

[PsyOps]

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

- Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[Bird Dog]

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

- Ephesians 2:8-9

That contradicts Matthew 25:31..45

scripture

 

[PsyOps]

That contradicts Matthew 25:31..45

scripture

So, if I never accept Christ as my Savior, as long as I do all those things God will accept me into heaven?

 

[b23hqb]

That contradicts Matthew 25:31..45

scripture

No, it does not contradict. It has no relation to Eph 2:8-9, other than it is scripture.

Matt 25:31-45 refers to non-Jews that have lived through the Tribulation period and assisted, aided "the least of these my brethren (Jews - the physical family of Jesus - his earthly family)". By assisting the Jews, the Gentiles were, unknowingly, directly ministering to the King Himself. This will be revealed, by the Chief Shepherd (Christ) Himself, to those on His right hand. Ezekiel 20:33-38 prophesies this quite clearly.

Matthew 25 is spoken to and directed to the Jews specifically, answering the disciples questions from Matt 24 concerning His coming and the end of the Age.

Both groups - Jews and Gentiles - will be judged individually based on their belief in Christ.

No such thing as a blanket pardon just because one is.

Good topic.

 

[Bird Dog]

So, if I never accept Christ as my Savior, as long as I do all those things God will accept me into heaven?

I would tend to believe if you did those things, you would believe.

I personally do not believe in any "sola". It's a package.

 

[b23hqb]

I would tend to believe if you did those things, you would believe.

I personally do not believe in any "sola". It's a package.

Interesting statement, especially the part about doing then you would believe. I disagree, simply because so many people forever have done such "good" things just to gain public, political, and religious favor without caring in their heart at all the root of what it is biblically about. It is the general nature of people to do one thing publicaly, then be a complete opposite out of the public view, with others of like interests, or alone. I'm sure we all can agree with that.

Just curious - what do you mean by "it's a package"? "Splain that to a non-catholic.

 

[StoneThrower]

I wasn't going to say that at all.

The fact is that everyone sins, even Christians, as stated in I John 1:8-9,



At what point does the passage in Hebrews take affect? Does this mean a Christian loses his salvation?

More importantly was who was it written to, and it wasn’t a gentile audience being addressed. My point is it’s not for the Christian it was written to the Hebrew audience that was composed of three groups, genuine converts, people with intellectual knowledge but not true believers, and those that just like to listen and investigate something fringy. Being a true convert meant being removed from the temple, loss of family and friends and persecution as those that had originally brought the message of the gospel were being killed. The author of Hebrews shows how all of the ceremony was pointing to Christ, better than the angels, a better sacrifice, a better high priest. One word BETTER. Then there is the meaning of the word salvation in Hebrews is used in the Hebrew understanding a delivery from enemies and persecution.

The sin the verse is taking about is going back under Judism

 

[b23hqb]

More importantly was who was it written to, and it wasnt a gentile audiance being addressed.

Yup.

"Matthew 25 is spoken to and directed to the Jews specifically, answering the disciples questions from Matt 24 concerning His coming and the end of the Age."

My emphasis.

Interesting.

 

[hotcoffee]

Let's get some context here.... Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 and Hebrews 10.

In Matthew Christ is talking about the Salvation He alone brings to those who believe in Him. Things are going to get rough and without Him.... the unsaved will have no hope.

There aren't enough oxen, cattle, goats, lambs and pigeons in the world for the sacrifice to account for our sins.

On top of that all the arguments with the Pharisees throughout the Gospels are a definite sign that the Temples have already been torn down.... morally.... if not physically....

In Hebrews.... The verses to worry about are not IMHO 26-27.... If you ask me you should be worried about 29-31:

Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

d.Hebrews 10:30 Deut. 32:35
e.Hebrews 10:30 Deut. 32:36; Psalm 135:14

Jew and Gentile alike caused Him to be publicly Hung on a Cross, Insulted and jeered.... what make you think He will have mercy on anyone who reads these verses and doesn't surrender at that very instance?

People, especially Pharisees and Sadducees, get all hung up on a word or a verse and go totally out of whack because of it. Read it in context. This is some pretty hairy stuff to be questioning.... or at least that's my view of it.

I don't understand all this "sola" terminology..... it would cause a lot of newborn Christians to stumble if they thought they had to understand that kind of terminology to be comfortable with the gift of grace they received upon believing. But then again.... I'm not a preacher....

 

[Bird Dog]

Let's get some context here.... Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 and Hebrews 10.

In Matthew Christ is talking about the Salvation He alone brings to those who believe in Him. Things are going to get rough and without Him.... the unsaved will have no hope.

There aren't enough oxen, cattle, goats, lambs and pigeons in the world for the sacrifice to account for our sins.

On top of that all the arguments with the Pharisees throughout the Gospels are a definite sign that the Temples have already been torn down.... morally.... if not physically....

In Hebrews.... The verses to worry about are not IMHO 26-27.... If you ask me you should be worried about 29-31:

Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

d.Hebrews 10:30 Deut. 32:35
e.Hebrews 10:30 Deut. 32:36; Psalm 135:14


I don't understand all this "sola" terminology..... it would cause a lot of newborn Christians to stumble if they thought they had to understand that kind of terminology to be comfortable with the gift of grace they received upon believing. But then again.... I'm not a preacher....

I do not disagree.

 

[PsyOps]

I would tend to believe if you did those things, you would believe.

This doesn’t even remotely pair up with reality. You do not have to be a Christian to do ‘good’ things.

 

[b23hqb]

This doesn’t even remotely pair up with reality. You do not have to be a Christian to do ‘good’ things.

Yes. We all see that everyday, everywhere you go. Plenty of non-Christians donating time and money to good causes or issues, helping little old ladies across the street, etc.

 

[Zguy28]

I would tend to believe if you did those things, you would believe.

I would tend to believe if you are a believer, you would do those things.

I personally do not believe in any "sola". It's a package.

Really? Not even Sola Gratia, Sola Dei Gloria, and part of Sola Christus (I assume you believe Christ is not the sole mediator between man and God)?

 

[Zguy28]

I often use these verses in scripture among others to refute sola fide. For those who subscribe to this particular sola, share with me what you don't see in these verses that I do.

You mean besides the context of at least the entire chapter?

Or the entire epistle where the author consistently delivers very stern warnings against sin? Why would he do that? Might it be that perhaps some Christians were not acting like Christians should? That never happens right?

I like what old Albert Barnes the Presbyterian wrote:

it is true, and always will be true, that if a sincere Christian should apostatize he could never be converted again; see the notes on Heb_6:4-6. The reasons are obvious. He would have tried the only plan of salvation, and it would have failed. He would have embraced the Saviour, and there would not have been efficacy enough in his blood to keep him, and there would be no more powerful Saviour and no more efficacious blood of atonement. He would have renounced the Holy Spirit, and would have shown that his influences were not effectual to keep him, and there would be no other agent of greater power to renew and save him after he had apostatized. For these reasons it seems clear to me that this passage refers to true Christians, and that the doctrine here taught is, that if such an one should apostatize, he must look forward only to the terrors of the judgment, and to final condemnation.
Whether this in fact ever occurs, is quite another question. In regard to that inquiry, see the notes on Heb_6:4-6. If this view be correct, we may add, that the passage should not be regarded as applying to what is commonly known as the “sin against the Holy Spirit,” or “the unpardonable sin.” The word rendered “wilfully” - ἑκουσίως hekousiōs - occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, except in 1Pe_5:2, where it is rendered “willingly” - “taking the oversight thereof (of the church) not by constraint, but willingly.” It properly means, “willingly, voluntarily, of our own accord,” and applies to cases where no constraint is used. It is not to be construed here strictly, or metaphysically, for all sin is voluntary, or is committed willingly, but must refer to a deliberate act, where a man means to abandon his religion, and to turn away from God. If it were to be taken with metaphysical exactness, it would demonstrate that every Christian who ever does anything wrong, no matter how small, would be lost.
But this cannot, from the nature of the case, be the meaning. The apostle well knew that Christians do commit such sins (see the notes on Rom. 7), and his object here is not to set forth the danger of such sins, but to guard Christians against apostasy from their religion. In the Jewish Law, as is indeed the case everywhere, a distinction is made between sins of oversight, inadvertence, or ignorance, (Lev_4:2, Lev_4:13, Lev_4:22, Lev_4:27; Lev_5:15; Num_15:24, Num_15:27-29; compare Act_3:17; Act_17:30), and sins of presumption; sins that are deliberately and intentionally committed; see Exo_21:14; Num_15:30; Deu_17:12; Psa_19:13. The apostle here has reference, evidently, to such a distinction, and means to speak of a decided and deliberate purpose to break away from the restraints and obligations of the Christian religion.

 

[Bird Dog]

I would tend to believe if you are a believer, you would do those things.

Really? Not even Sola Gratia, Sola Dei Gloria, and part of Sola Christus (I assume you believe Christ is not the sole mediator between man and God)?

1. Yes, better stated

2. I think they are basically all the same, but then again I am not a religious scholar, as you are.

 

[Zguy28]

1. Yes, better stated

2. I think they are basically all the same, but then again I am not a religious scholar, as you are.

I am NOT a scholar, but they are not the same.

Sola Gratia = Salvation by Grace alone
Sola Dei Gloria = Glory to God Alone
Sola Christus = Salvation is through Christ alone