Herd bound horses...

[ebs]

Wondering if anyone has had experience with herd bound horses? I am interested in hearing any suggestions that have worked for others. I have a pony mare about 12 yrs old that is working herself into an absolute frenzy when separated from her pasture mate. She will run the fence line and call and scream until she is drenched with sweat. In the stall she will spin and paw until she tears up the floor mats, banging her knees on the stall door. It doesn't matter if there are other horses in the next paddock or nearby stalls. Even when the two are in stalls right next to each other, she will stand right by the wall between them - though her feed and hay are on the opposite side. She won't eat, or she will run over and take a bite and then run back. She used to only panic if she was left alone but now she also freaks out if she is the one taken away. She was a worrier to begin with, and it is my fault for changing her environment three times in the last six months, but her behavior is starting to rub off on the other mares. We have had her on SmartCalm for two months but it does not seem to help.

Right now the longest they have been separated (out of sight but not out of hearing) is about 45 minutes, and the pony showed no signs of calming down in that time. I wonder if it would be better to just totally separate them and see how long it will take her to calm down? I am worried she will hurt herself, she is so crazed, but that is probably what we are going to start doing. Where we are, we can put her out of sight of her buddy but probably not out of hearing. Just thought I'd see if anything different had worked for anyone else. Thanks!

 

[Roman]

Wondering if anyone has had experience with herd bound horses? I am interested in hearing any suggestions that have worked for others. I have a pony mare about 12 yrs old that is working herself into an absolute frenzy when separated from her pasture mate. She will run the fence line and call and scream until she is drenched with sweat. In the stall she will spin and paw until she tears up the floor mats, banging her knees on the stall door. It doesn't matter if there are other horses in the next paddock or nearby stalls. Even when the two are in stalls right next to each other, she will stand right by the wall between them - though her feed and hay are on the opposite side. She won't eat, or she will run over and take a bite and then run back. She used to only panic if she was left alone but now she also freaks out if she is the one taken away. She was a worrier to begin with, and it is my fault for changing her environment three times in the last six months, but her behavior is starting to rub off on the other mares. We have had her on SmartCalm for two months but it does not seem to help.

Right now the longest they have been separated (out of sight but not out of hearing) is about 45 minutes, and the pony showed no signs of calming down in that time. I wonder if it would be better to just totally separate them and see how long it will take her to calm down? I am worried she will hurt herself, she is so crazed, but that is probably what we are going to start doing. Where we are, we can put her out of sight of her buddy but probably not out of hearing. Just thought I'd see if anything different had worked for anyone else. Thanks!

I know nothing about Horses, but what is the harm keeping her with another Horse that she enjoys being with? She sounds very attached to the other Horse.

 

[ebs]

There are times when one of them will have to leave the other, like when I want to ride the horse and need to leave the pony behind. Or if my daughter has a lesson and needs to take the pony out of the field and into the ring while the horse stays in the field. It isn't possible to have them together 24/7 unless they just stand in the field together, and unfortunately, that is not why we bought them and not something we can afford to let them do.

It could also escalate to a dangerous situation, in that the pony seems to lose her mind when on her own. It is somewhat understandable, because horses are prey animals and rely on a herd, but when she gets so crazed, she is dangerous to handle or ride, esp. for my child.

 

[MarieB]

I also know nothing about horses, but we had to medicate our dog for separation anxiety when he was a pup. I wonder if there is medication for horses?

 

[DQ2B]

There are some that have had success with taking the herd bound horse away, then bringing it back to the other horse but herd bound horse must work while in proximity of the other. Then move away again and allow the herd bound one to rest, graze, etc while away. In other words, if it's near it's buddy it must work, it gets to rest when it moves away. (John Lyons explains the method in more detail). It's a slow process so you have to have time enough to work on it. I wish you luck. I don't have this exact problem but have a herd bound horse that only exhibits the behavior away from home. Talk about hard to fix. I don't have the time to trailer out all the time, much less find another body to tag along and handle one of the others in herd. It absolutely is a dangerous situation. My guy is completely unrideable once he gets pushed beyond his idea of how far away one of his buddies can be.

 

[ebs]

There are some that have had success with taking the herd bound horse away, then bringing it back to the other horse but herd bound horse must work while in proximity of the other. Then move away again and allow the herd bound one to rest, graze, etc while away. In other words, if it's near it's buddy it must work, it gets to rest when it moves away. (John Lyons explains the method in more detail). It's a slow process so you have to have time enough to work on it. I wish you luck. I don't have this exact problem but have a herd bound horse that only exhibits the behavior away from home. Talk about hard to fix. I don't have the time to trailer out all the time, much less find another body to tag along and handle one of the others in herd. It absolutely is a dangerous situation. My guy is completely unrideable once he gets pushed beyond his idea of how far away one of his buddies can be.

Thanks for the ideas! Right now she is too nervous to relax away from the other horse, she will not graze or eat. But we haven't tried treats, we should try giving her the cookies she loves only when she is relatively calm and away from the other. We also need to get her back into regular work, since she hasn't been doing much at all for the last month and I'm sure that is not helping the situation. I am worried that I have stressed her too much by moving her. But it has only been a week since we moved, so I am hoping she will settle down. Has your boy always been like that, or is it something he developed?

 

[DQ2B]

Has your boy always been like that, or is it something he developed?

I honestly don't know if he has always had the problem. I've shown him for years at dressage shows by himself with nary a problem. When we left home to trail ride it was always with one or more of the others and I never had a need to ride away from his buddy or buddies. I never gave it a thought until this past spring when I decided to try him at one of the local shows that have english pleasure and equitation classes in which my boarder also goes to. This is when and where I discovered that he was herd bound as he would not leave my boarders horse to enter the ring. Just when you think you know your horse....

 

[ebs]

You know, I knew this pony was on the nervous side when we bought her last fall but I never imagined this. She kicked the door off her stall this morning when her buddy was taken out first. I don't know if it is better to let them stay together and give her more time to adjust or just to separate them. On the one hand, letting them stay together will ease her anxiety and maybe help her adjust, but on the other, it might also just make the situation worse in the long run. She's going to go on double doses of the SmartCalm, that's for sure, and I will probably have to step it up to something else.

 

[ebs]

I also know nothing about horses, but we had to medicate our dog for separation anxiety when he was a pup. I wonder if there is medication for horses?

They do - I was trying to avoid anything prescription, but she has been getting a calming supplement that consists of vitamins and minerals. We may have to go for something stronger, though! Did your dog eventually get over it/grow out of it, or does he still need the meds?

 

[photo]

Not sure if this might apply to a horse, but I remember my dad telling this story about a dog he once had, while in the company of other dogs and people he said he was the sweetest dog he had ever owned. However if the dog was alone he was like the Tasmania Devil (destroyed the interior of a car once) come to find out the dog was deaf and kind of went crazy when alone.

 

[MarieB]

They do - I was trying to avoid anything prescription, but she has been getting a calming supplement that consists of vitamins and minerals. We may have to go for something stronger, though! Did your dog eventually get over it/grow out of it, or does he still need the meds?

He was only medicated for maybe 4-6 months. You have to combine that with training, and they have to get a lot of exercise. It reduces their stress level so they can take in the training. He never completely outgrew it, but at least he wasn't ripping the house and furniture apart and peeing on the floor if we blocked him from us in any manner. He would literally pee outside the bathroom door if you closed it. We tried to kennel him while we were gone, and he bent the metal bars in the kennel with his teeth. He would also have accidents in the kennel, and it wasn't pretty. He remained somewhat of what we called a stalker, but there were good things about. He never left the yard, and you could take him for a walk without a leash.

Sorry for the ramble . The medication was clomicalm. If you decide to get something, you can find it online for much cheaper. We have used AllVet Pet meds out of Florida.

 

[ebs]

He remained somewhat of what we called a stalker, but there were good things about. He never left the yard, and you could take him for a walk without a leash.

That's too funny! The pony is just like that - she was in the indoor arena the other day and freaked out and ran right under the chest-high board that blocks the door, but she went about 10 feet and then stopped and stood there like "Someone come catch me!"

I am definitely going to get our vet involved and see what she says.

 

[MarieB]

That's too funny! The pony is just like that - she was in the indoor arena the other day and freaked out and ran right under the chest-high board that blocks the door, but she went about 10 feet and then stopped and stood there like "Someone come catch me!"

I am definitely going to get our vet involved and see what she says.

Yep, very similar. I used to feel bad for him when I was forgetful. I'd sit on the couch, he'd lay down next to me, and when I realized I forgt my drink in the kitchen he'd get right back up with me to go to the kitchen and back to the couch. Rinse repeat.

I did a ton of research online. I knew more about it than the vet. He actually asked me to provide him with my research notes and printouts.


I found this
Separation Anxiety In Horses

It may not exactly relate to your situation, but there seems to be some useful information.

 

[ebs]

Thanks for the article - it is very similar. Interesting that they specifically mention "closely bonded pairs of mares," which is exactly what we have (although I think the pony is more bonded than the horse). It has only been a week, so we are going to give it a little bit longer and see if she settles down once she adjusts more to the new environment. If she's not better in a week or so, we'll have to step up to a stronger calming supplement/medication, or just separate them and let the chips fall where they may. At this point, I am worried that she will hurt herself, but I am also concerned that she is so stressed that she is absolutely miserable - and for horses, that amount of stress can lead to a bunch of other (not good) medical issues.

 

[ravenhorse]

I think you are wise to get the vet involved. I would do that before you start cranking up the calming meds, just in case there's something in there that could make matters worse if overdosed. I'd have the vet check out everything - it could be a medical issue, as mentioned before about the dogs, like deafness or even blindness. Sometimes we can't tell by just looking at them if there's something wrong. Also, you may want to look into treating for ulcers. With all the moving you've been doing, your pony might just be extra stressed out which is actually causing her pain. Because she has bonded with the horse, she's begun to only feel safe and comfortable around her. Always check for medical problems first, in cases like these, because horses can only tell us when something's wrong by acting out.

If nothing's wrong physically, then you'll have to start retraining her. If you're not experienced, it would be wise to find someone who is because the first few sessions are very important. Some of the suggestions made before are good and you should try them. However, it sounds to me that the pony has no respect for humans at all. If she trusts and respects you, then she will start to gain assurance and confidence from people instead of other horses. You should not try to force this on her. Instead, channel the bad behavior into something you can control, like work. This might take a few sessions, but she must learn to trust humans and find her confidence through us. PM me if you want more detailed help in training. I just don't want to put stuff out there for everyone to read in case someone with a similar situation wants to try it and gets hurt.

 

[ebs]

I think you are wise to get the vet involved. I would do that before you start cranking up the calming meds, just in case there's something in there that could make matters worse if overdosed. I'd have the vet check out everything - it could be a medical issue, as mentioned before about the dogs, like deafness or even blindness. Sometimes we can't tell by just looking at them if there's something wrong. Also, you may want to look into treating for ulcers. With all the moving you've been doing, your pony might just be extra stressed out which is actually causing her pain. Because she has bonded with the horse, she's begun to only feel safe and comfortable around her. Always check for medical problems first, in cases like these, because horses can only tell us when something's wrong by acting out.

If nothing's wrong physically, then you'll have to start retraining her. If you're not experienced, it would be wise to find someone who is because the first few sessions are very important. Some of the suggestions made before are good and you should try them. However, it sounds to me that the pony has no respect for humans at all. If she trusts and respects you, then she will start to gain assurance and confidence from people instead of other horses. You should not try to force this on her. Instead, channel the bad behavior into something you can control, like work. This might take a few sessions, but she must learn to trust humans and find her confidence through us. PM me if you want more detailed help in training. I just don't want to put stuff out there for everyone to read in case someone with a similar situation wants to try it and gets hurt.

Thanks - she is actually OK for an adult to handle right now. She jigs on the lead and does invade your space but she is not malicious or mean about it. She's not trying to run you over or drag you around. It is like she is trying to be good but she is so panicked she can't stop herself. I know I am the exact wrong person to work with her. I don't have the experience and more importantly, I don't have the patience. I get frustrated very easily and that is only going to make the situation worse. I am not opposed to getting a trainer involved, but I worry that no matter what I do, as soon as she gets with this other horse again (within sight or smell, even if not stalled next to each other or in the same field), she will revert back to these habits. You are definitely right about the ulcers though,she is making herself crazy and that can't be good.

 

[wonchance]

Wondering if anyone has had experience with herd bound horses? I am interested in hearing any suggestions that have worked for others. I have a pony mare about 12 yrs old that is working herself into an absolute frenzy when separated from her pasture mate. She will run the fence line and call and scream until she is drenched with sweat. In the stall she will spin and paw until she tears up the floor mats, banging her knees on the stall door. It doesn't matter if there are other horses in the next paddock or nearby stalls. Even when the two are in stalls right next to each other, she will stand right by the wall between them - though her feed and hay are on the opposite side. She won't eat, or she will run over and take a bite and then run back. She used to only panic if she was left alone but now she also freaks out if she is the one taken away. She was a worrier to begin with, and it is my fault for changing her environment three times in the last six months, but her behavior is starting to rub off on the other mares. We have had her on SmartCalm for two months but it does not seem to help.

Right now the longest they have been separated (out of sight but not out of hearing) is about 45 minutes, and the pony showed no signs of calming down in that time. I wonder if it would be better to just totally separate them and see how long it will take her to calm down? I am worried she will hurt herself, she is so crazed, but that is probably what we are going to start doing. Where we are, we can put her out of sight of her buddy but probably not out of hearing. Just thought I'd see if anything different had worked for anyone else. Thanks!

Well. you can do one of two things.

1) If you have the ability to do this. Totally seperate them. where they cannot see or hear each other. Permanently.
You can try getting the worrier a companion mini donkey or some chickens.
Unfortunately, once they become attached like this. every time you bring their "friend" back, you start the process all over again....

2) Attempt to teach them to "get over it". this will be painful, require alot of work and patience on your part, and you will need to watch the pony to make sure she doesn't hurt herself. find a "patience pole" tie them to it. remove the companion until the pony settles down. make doing this a habit for varying lengths of time until being alone isn't a big deal. (your worrier may very well throw a big temper tantrum here. You will need to be careful both for your sake and hers.)

I feel your pain. good luck.

 

[ravenhorse]

Thanks - she is actually OK for an adult to handle right now. She jigs on the lead and does invade your space but she is not malicious or mean about it. She's not trying to run you over or drag you around. It is like she is trying to be good but she is so panicked she can't stop herself. I know I am the exact wrong person to work with her. I don't have the experience and more importantly, I don't have the patience. I get frustrated very easily and that is only going to make the situation worse. I am not opposed to getting a trainer involved, but I worry that no matter what I do, as soon as she gets with this other horse again (within sight or smell, even if not stalled next to each other or in the same field), she will revert back to these habits. You are definitely right about the ulcers though,she is making herself crazy and that can't be good.

You're right - it sounds like she's just plain scared to be by herself. I've seen this before in horses who just don't have any self esteem or confidence in themselves. It's hard to say what to you should do without actually seeing what's going on, but the only thing I can suggest is getting the vet out. Also, since it sounds like you use smartpak already, try putting her on SmartGut or SmartDigest, or one of the supplements to try and help her belly. Even if she doesn't have ulcers now, with the fear she's feeling now it's possible she might start to colic soon.

I wish you the best! Hope you can find out what's going on with your pony!

 

[duchess1]

Here is a short article to help you out. Buddy Sour Horses: Break the Bond by Clinton Anderson | Horse Digest
What the horse is actually wanting is a strong leader to make her feel safe. Honestly, if you put your horse thru Clinton Anderson's fundamentals, you won't have a problem in the world with any aspect of your horse. But the article has a short fix. But when these world famous horse trainers say "work" your horse around the herd, they mean to WORK your horse. It takes more than just a half hour of groudnwork and or riding. It is a tough situation you're in and it sounds like yours is to extreme. I wish you luck and hope things work out for you. And I'm glad the horse has someone lke you who is willing to try to help her. Good luck!

 

[ebs]

Here is a short article to help you out. Buddy Sour Horses: Break the Bond by Clinton Anderson | Horse Digest
What the horse is actually wanting is a strong leader to make her feel safe. Honestly, if you put your horse thru Clinton Anderson's fundamentals, you won't have a problem in the world with any aspect of your horse. But the article has a short fix. But when these world famous horse trainers say "work" your horse around the herd, they mean to WORK your horse. It takes more than just a half hour of groudnwork and or riding. It is a tough situation you're in and it sounds like yours is to extreme. I wish you luck and hope things work out for you. And I'm glad the horse has someone lke you who is willing to try to help her. Good luck!

Thanks for the article - it is actually going a little bit better (I probably shouldn't jinx it!). She's back in consistent work and I think keeping her busy is leaving her less time and energy to worry so much. I do have some Clinton Anderson DVDs, and we are going back to the basics to get her head on straight again. Thanks!