I agree with 2A. I'm not really seeing the "melting pot" that's supposed to be our pride and our heritage.
history to a whole generation who never heard any of this
- Thread starter 2ndAmendment
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dems4me
Guest
Larry Gude said:
Well Larry, I would like to respond and say I agree with you, but I'll just save us the trouble before someone else does in my krama.... here ya' go
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Bruzilla
Guest
vraiblonde said:
You can't see the melting pot because you're in it.
You're experiencing the can't see the forest for the trees syndrome. Think about it for a second... how many cultures have an impact on you every day? Do you eat at Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Mexican, Italian, etc., restauraunts? Do you grab a pizza or some other take-out for dinner at home? How about stopping at McDonalds for some basic American (German) hamburgers? Do you enjoy fireworks (China) on the 4th of July? Do your kids play video games that involve driving or racing (most programmed in Japan)? What about the furniture in your home. Is it all early American, or do you have some foreign flavors in there (Norwegian, Italian, Spanish, etc.)? Do you like an all-American brewski after a long day at work... most beers stem from recipes and brewing practices brought over from Europe. Maybe a fine American wine, distilled from grapes grown in California from seeds imported from France. How about your friends and coworkers? Unless you're living on a reservation and only hang out with native americans, you're dealing with people who've merged into the melting pot somewheres along the line. Are you safe at Church? Most religions formed up overseas and were brought over with the imigrants who formed the melting pot, so unless you're Mormon... you're in the pot.I think that you and 2A are falling into that trap of hearing a few whiners and criers who make a lot of noise about being an African-American, or a Mexican-American, or pull some stunt to show they're not about to be "Americanized", and see them as the millions and millions of people who have made America what it is today. The idiots who say they don't want to be viewed or considered as Americans make the news, they don't make America.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Won't you all join in?
Simply beautiful...
:sniff:
Cue Ray Charles;
Oh, beautiful for spacious skies, and amber waves of grain! ....
Bruzilla said:You can't see the melting pot because you're in it.
I think that you and 2A are falling into that trap of hearing a few whiners and criers who make a lot of noise about being an African-American, or a Mexican-American, or pull some stunt to show they're not about to be "Americanized", and see them as the millions and millions of people who have made America what it is today. The idiots who say they don't want to be viewed or considered as Americans make the news, they don't make America.
Simply beautiful...
:sniff:
Cue Ray Charles;
Oh, beautiful for spacious skies, and amber waves of grain! ....
I disagree. Hollywood and the media do not melt into the pot. And they aren't just a few whiners a criers - they are the people who shape our culture and influence opinion. You can say they don't influence YOUR opinion, but it cannot be denied that they do, in fact, influence the vast majority of Americans.Bruzilla said:
What do you think the much-lauded "multi-cultural" means? Not "melting pot", but "multi-culturalism" - separate cultures that happen to interact with one another. And this is something that is now taught in our schools, so how you're not seeing it is beyond me.
ylexot
Super Genius
On a slightly related note, last night on Hannity and Colmes, they were talking about the Taliban guy at Yale. The big argument was diversity. I have no problem with diversity. It's useful, but at an academic institution, it should not override academics! Diversity should be a secondary persuit, not a primary driver. Colmes said something like "where would you prefer him to be, at Yale or Afghanistan?" Well, I'm sure Yale is better, but what makes that guy more deserving than anyone else?
Larry Gude
Strung Out
I've actually thrown up the white flag...
...there. I used to argue Americans, by and large, are far to inteligent to have their values shaped by movies and music. Those things just affect stlye and trends. Alas.
You are right on that one dahling.
vraiblonde said:
...there. I used to argue Americans, by and large, are far to inteligent to have their values shaped by movies and music. Those things just affect stlye and trends. Alas.
You are right on that one dahling.
Yes!vraiblonde said:
I don't see how Larry and Bruzilla don't see it. I think it was Bru that stated he is all for illegals being allowed to stay in the U.S. in order to keep wages low.
Larry, you missed it. I have no problem with Hispanic, Asian, Euro peoples coming legally to the United States and becoming PART of the culture of the U.S. adding to its whole. I have a problem with Little Havana or my cleaning lady who has been in the U.S. for 15 years and speaks broken English because she refuses to speak it at home and asked me why I don't learn Spanish in order to speak with her. Sorry, I don't live in Spain or Cuba. When I was in Spain, I did my best to speak Spanish; it was not perfect, but I was only visiting for three weeks. When I was in Germany, I tried to speak German as well as I could. Again, I did not live there more than a couple of months at a time. If I lived anywhere for 15 years, I would expect to be fairly fluent in the native language.
Hessian
Well-Known Member
Melting Pot vs Salad?
This issue was heavily addressed in the 1980's...and the academic elites felt that there was nothing wrong with us being a salad.
They were wrong.
As wrong as the moslem that fragged his officers a few years ago.
Being a salad clearly points to internal weaknesses.
The inherent pride of being an American 95 years ago was in the thought that Americans are different...in the way they talk, their dress, their manners, their swagger, their unwillingness to hold grudges...and yes even in their discrimination.
My father was belted when he accidently asked a question in German on the streets of Jersey: sternly reminded: In Public: English!
Was it DeTocqueville that said that America is blessed because...of its goodness & faith?
When we lose both due to declining morals and alien invasion...we lose our blessing too.
This issue was heavily addressed in the 1980's...and the academic elites felt that there was nothing wrong with us being a salad.
They were wrong.
As wrong as the moslem that fragged his officers a few years ago.
Being a salad clearly points to internal weaknesses.
The inherent pride of being an American 95 years ago was in the thought that Americans are different...in the way they talk, their dress, their manners, their swagger, their unwillingness to hold grudges...and yes even in their discrimination.
My father was belted when he accidently asked a question in German on the streets of Jersey: sternly reminded: In Public: English!
Was it DeTocqueville that said that America is blessed because...of its goodness & faith?
When we lose both due to declining morals and alien invasion...we lose our blessing too.
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Bruzilla
Guest
vraiblonde said:
Ummm... which Hollywood is shaping our culture and influencing opinion? The Hollywood of the 1930s who gave us cowboy heroes and gangsters and cops, so that every little boy wanted to grow up to be a cowboy, gangsters or cops... much to the chagrin of their industrial era parents? How about the Hollywood of the 1940s who gave us war epics that led many people (including me) to serve their country? How about the Hollywood of the 1950s who gave us all a chance to worry about what radiation was doing to critters, or encouraged people to become interested in space? How about the Hollywood of the 1960s through 1970s who gave us lots of mindless trash that didn't really influence anyone but the weak minded? How about Hollywood of today? You give George Clooney, Babs Steisand, and Janine Garafalo, and I give you Kurt Russell/Goldie Hawn, Bruce Willis, James Woods, and Bo Derek (actually... I think I'll hold onto Bo).
The point is... so what if they influence the hearts and minds of Americans? What difference does that make to whether or not America is a melting pot? Hollywood and the like have been shaping public opinion for decades... it's the American way. In the 1950s they made everybody want to be a cowboy... in 2006 they make everybody want to be an over-rated actor with horrible grosses... so what? In twenty years who knows what Hollywood will be making people want to be, but what is for sure is that they will influence people just like beer commercials, NASCAR racers, politicians, radio hosts, forum posters, etc., do. Since when is it not American to try to influence people?
I see multi-culturalism every day! I work with Muslims, I work with Jews, I work with Catholics, blacks, indians, Palestinians. My cousin is married to a guy from Beirut who's mother blesses the car before every drive. I stand in line at the grocery store behind several Mexicans who are probably illegal, buting the wierdest assemblage of products you can imagine... and at an all-American, "F the unions" Food Lion store that has a complete isle dedicated to Hispanic food stuffs. Is that any more Un-American than when my mom used to take me to the Irish (McKee's Rocks) part of Pittsburgh for the really good Italian breads (Mancini's Bakery)?
Lastly, what's the difference between "melting pot" and "multiculturalism" aside from some letters? They are the same damn thing, with the exception that a "melting pot" is a passive event that occurs over time as cultures adapt elements of one another, and "multiculturalism" is a proactive effort to make people more aware of one another's cultures. The end result of both is the same. I've yet to have one kid come home from school saying 'Dad... we have to live like Muslims" or "Dad, we have to live like Mexicans." I've also failed to receive a summons in the mail for failure to live like an Eskimo or Irish Sheep Herder, so to the best of my knowledge there's no effort underway... aside from you apparent paranoia, to force you to live any differently than you choose to.
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Bruzilla
Guest
2ndAmendment said:
Yes... that was me who's still 100% behind illegal immigration.
Maybe it was the way I was raised that allows me to see things more clearly. My great-grandfather Rennekamp came over from Germany, and died when I was seven. He emigrated when he was 25, and died when he was 82, and could barely speak English. When he was at home with my great-grandmother he spoke nothing but German. I learned to speak German from listening to him and my grandparents. And that was common in Pittsburgh where you could go to Polish Hill and hear and read nothing but Polish everywhere. Or little Italy, or the Jewish quarter where everything was Hebrew. The stuff that is seemingly bothering you about "things today" have in fact been going on for as long as America has been around. Go to Polish Hill in the 'Burgh and tell them how messed up it is having a Little Havana in Miami... of course unless you speak Polish many there won't talk to you. And yet many of these folks who speak English and German, Italian, Polish, Yiddish, etc., served in the military, worked as cops, firemen, steel workers, etc., all those All-American jobs that made America what it is today.
So.. you get your nose bent all out of shape because your cleaning woman refuses to learn English and asks you to learn Spanish. Did you exercise your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and say "no way"? If you did you've got nothing to ##### about. If she took you to court and sued you to force you to learn Spanish, and won, then you would have cause to complain.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
So YOU are the problem!
A ha!!
See? That's not how we do around here! Speak English or lose work to someone who is learning it.
2ndAmendment said:
A ha!!
See? That's not how we do around here! Speak English or lose work to someone who is learning it.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Preach on brother Bru....
...preach on!
Bruzilla said:
...preach on!
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Go, baby!
...go, baby, go!
...land that I LOVE! Stand beside her and guide her...
Bruzilla said:
...go, baby, go!
...land that I LOVE! Stand beside her and guide her...
SamSpade
Well-Known Member
So how come YOU don't speak only German?Bruzilla said:
Answer - SOMEONE in your family thought it was important to learn the language spoken here. Am I right?
What DOES get my nose bent slightly out of joint is this same level of arrogance that people would point at Americans if they went to Germany or China or Russia and demanded that THEY LEARN ENGLISH. You know what they'd say - you're in our country now, round-eye. You do things our way. And I would agree with them.
My folks know a handful of families here, from Latin America - and they insist that they are *still* Costa Rican/Guatemalan/Panamanian - and they will not celebrate "American" holidays, and forbid their children to do so. Further, they do not consider themselves "American". They're still natives of their country, and openly voice their dislike of this country - of how it is inferior to their own. All this of course, while enjoying the benefits of living here, such as owning their own home and raising their children and sending them to good schools.
I hate this - I mean, really, *hate* this - the immigrants from years past went through hell to get here LEGALLY - and over time, adapted and became part of American culture. They blended into it, added to it, enriched it - but they are most definitely *Americans*. This is their new nation. I know this; just like most of us, my ancestors came here from Ireland and England. THIS place was their home, their adopted home.
When I go to Russia, it will be nice to find some things written in English - in fact, in some of the more touristy sections, I imagine it will be, because it's good business. But I don't EXPECT that if I buy something there, the instruction will be in five languages. It will be in Russian - PERIOD. Imagine how insulted they would be to know I intended to spend my entire life there, but had no intention of learning how to speak to them - but arrogant enough to expect THEM to learn how to speak to me!
Bustem' Down
Give Peas a Chance
It is interesting to note that the US Army and Army Air Corp along with the Navy was horribly out dated at the time thet Hitler invaded Poland. We actually needed the period of "isolationism" to ramp up our industry after the depression and update our out dated military in order to fight the German war machine. It would be a pretty good debate as to wether the US's entrance into the war would have made much of a difference if we had gone into the war in the 30's vise 41. Like the meaning of life, a debate that can't really be answered. Even during the war Germany had a technical advantage over us in many catagories.Larry Gude said:
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Bruzilla
Guest
SamSpade said:
Why don't I speak only German? Because my grandparents, my parents, and I all decided to learn English. It was a choice that we made, and isn't freedom of choice a staple of America? My great grandfather was a proud German and wanted to remain a proud German... that was his choice. My great grandmother was happy wherever she was, so it was no big deal for her... those were their choices. My mom never saw a need to be fluent in German, but did take Spanish in high school and college, which was her choice. My dad had little to do with by great grandfather because he had grown up during WWII and didn't like Germans (and still loathes Japanese), and that was his choice.
I've been to pretty much every major country in the World, and the one thing that's common to them all is that everywhere you go most signs are written in the native language and English, and every hotel has English speakers at the desk. The only place I've gone to that was an exception to that rule was Puerto Rico... an American territory... where if you don't speak Spanish you're going to have a tought time.
As for the imigrants of the past, I've known a LOT of them, and they all didn't chose to acclimate themselves to speaking English or other Americanisms at the time (like letting their women vote, observing labor laws, etc.) Did it ever occur to you that many of these people left their home countries because they didn't like not having a choice??? All those hard-working immigrants, the backbone of American productivity for the past century who you see fit to hail for their sacrifices, came here because they wanted freedom from people who would tell them how to live their lives. I'm glad there weren't people in power at the time who were like you guys.
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Larry Gude
Strung Out
Good points...
...and I guess I ought to clarify. It was up to France and Great Britain to reel in Adolph; it was their treaty and their azzes on the line. We were 3,000 miles away and, using todays popular mind set in regards to Iraq, Hitler had done less to us than Saddam, so there is a case to be made it wasn't our business or problem or in our interest at the time.
You are right; we couldn't have done squat, so, this debate is settled in agreement.
As far as technical advantage, they also had a huge tactical advantage against the world. Best small unit tactics the world had seen to that point.
Bustem' Down said:
...and I guess I ought to clarify. It was up to France and Great Britain to reel in Adolph; it was their treaty and their azzes on the line. We were 3,000 miles away and, using todays popular mind set in regards to Iraq, Hitler had done less to us than Saddam, so there is a case to be made it wasn't our business or problem or in our interest at the time.
You are right; we couldn't have done squat, so, this debate is settled in agreement.
As far as technical advantage, they also had a huge tactical advantage against the world. Best small unit tactics the world had seen to that point.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Now...
...if only I could get you straight on the ports...
Good, very good stuff my man.
Bruzilla said:
...if only I could get you straight on the ports...
Good, very good stuff my man.
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Bruzilla
Guest
Bustem' Down said:
To be a bit more accurate the period of isolationism did zippo for us as a military power. The US began ramping up our military strength, against a lot of opposition from many in the US, long before Hitler invaded Poland. And most of the great weapons that came out of WWII, the P-51D Mustang, the B-29, etc., weren't developed until well after 1941. Had we gotten into the war in the late 1930s the development of these weapons would have been pushed up as well.
We were very fortunate in the early 1930s to have people, much like GWB today, who were savy enough to look at the growing ambitions of countries like Germany, Japan, and Russia, and start getting the ball rolling on a US response. Without that effort we would have had no B-17s, only the Langley as a carrier, few submarines, no P-40s, no M-4 tanks, no M-1 Garands, or too much of anything else that we had at the start of the war. It was anything but an isolationist view that made these things possible. It was a view that war was coming, we were going to be involved, and we had better get ready.