Homeland Security

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I'd like to take the opportunity presented by the State of the Union speech and the Democratic rebutal to discuss 'homeland security'.

What is it? What should it be?

Pelosi and Co. point out all the holes in the system; un-inspected overseas cargo containers, porous border, lax security for private and cargo planes and so on and so forth. Ya da, ya da, ya da effing da.

Others point out what has to be the bigger issue; given all these apparently effortless points of infiltration, we have not been attacked since September 11, 2001. Not attacked once. By people willing to die in the process. Suppossedly desperate, commited, unwavering enemies.

For me, I view this, terror, like crime; if motive and opportunity are greater than the risk, then crime is more likely. If the converse is likely, crime goes down. And terrorism is just that, a crime.

Criminals don't, by and large, want a death struggle with the cops. They want something tangible. Money mostly.

Terrorists do not, obviously, want a death struggle with us because they've stopped. They want something tangible, in this case, Islamic Holy rule and what they are/were doing is not working.

In our free society, you are suppossed to be able to prepare and plan to rob a bank as long as you are not breaking the law in the process; gathering illegal weapons, explosives et al. We don't arrest people for what they think and write. The law intervenes AFTER you have commited your crime. Thought and preperation, means and opportunity enter the equation once you are suspect. Now they are evidence, not free speech or expression.

Nowadays, WMD's enter into the equation, like hard drugs, explosives, drunk driving, watching 'Survivor' and machine guns; the idea of the potential violence and/or damage being too great to wait until something actually happens.

Enter the Patriot Act. It's essential function is to move terrorism into the class of acts that allow and require pre-emptive action. FBI agents knew foreign nationals were taking flying lessons without learning to land. They were told they can NOT wire tap or hack into the laptops of the perps. They had not crossed the legal threshold. The Patriot Act fixed that.

Where I am going with this is do we really want to persue homeland security to the extent where we will be inspecting every last possible avenue of attack? Do you want to be ID checked as you enter the grocery store? Do you want to be frisked entering your kids high school basketball game? Do you want to pay hundreds and thousands fold more to inspect EVERY container thoroughly? To seal the borders? To have every incoming overseas package opened and tested?

There is nothing in the Homeland Security plan, now or ever, that can stop an Islamic terrorist from waltzing into your local high school at lunch time with homemade explosives in his jacket.

Or do we persue what I think the administratrion has persued; making the cost of the crime far to expensive and therefore, far less likely to happen. Something is keeping us safe from machine gunnings at the local mall and IED's on the beltway.

I submit that no matter what extent we go to in terms of homeland security there will ALWAYS be a way to cause mass murder and proerty damage when you are talking about perps who are willing to die in the process. Isn't that a given? Doesn't that make the vast majority of any Homeland Security plan mostly show?

So, take away their motivation. Make their actions enemies of their cause and forget becoming a 'safe' police state.

Osama Bin Laden, whatever his real intentions, has brought about a democratic Afghanistan and a democratic Iraq. Zaqarwi in Iraq has done more to make the Presidents case for invading Iraq than the administration ever could. I don't think that is what he had in mind.

We are winning. Freedom is winning. The Afghani and Iraqi people are winning. If Osama and the rest were right, we'd have daily mass bloodshed on a Biblical scale, right here at home as thousands upon thousands of true believers answered his call to arms. It ain't happening. The reverse is happening.

I say frisking my wife, however much of a thrill that may be, is useless in terms of domestic security. It's hunting mosquitos at 100 yards with a shotgun; if you hit something it's an accident. Same for inspecting containers and sealing the border.

The effort (manpower and money) should go into using the Patriot Act, developing usable evidence and acting on it, evidence that used to not be enough. Use a scalpel to cut out cancer. Let's build a larger military to support projecting our national interest and to ease the burden on those who have already given so much. Take some of that Homeland security money and give it to the family of a fallen soldier. He did far more for us than any cargo inpsection.

I think all of that is obviously happening and should continue.

So, what of de-emphasizing the fantasy of finding all the bad guys and their weapons which, to satisfy Pelosis criticisms, would turn us into a massive police state, and instead re-emphasize global security through democracy and liberty?

Marine Sgt. Byron Norwood did not die for oil or Halliburton or so the US can annex Iraq. We all know that. That is not what the US does.

Sgt. Norwood died for Safia Taleb al Suhail, the woman who would not let go of Sgt. Norwoods mom, who, in turn, would not let go of Safia.

He died so that one day Safia's son might stand in defense of his home, a home with rights and freedoms worth dying for.

He and those like him are our real Department of Homeland Security and a whole bunch of erstwhile bad guys have gotten the message.
 

SmallTown

Football season!
Larry Gude said:
For me, I view this, terror, like crime; if motive and opportunity are greater than the risk, then crime is more likely. If the converse is likely, crime goes down. And terrorism is just that, a crime.

Criminals don't, by and large, want a death struggle with the cops. They want something tangible. Money mostly.

Terrorists do not, obviously, want a death struggle with us because they've stopped. They want something tangible, in this case, Islamic Holy rule and what they are/were doing is not working.
So... Uhm... Which part of "suicide bombing" is confusing.
 

Lenny

Lovin' being Texican
Larry Gude said:
Pelosi and Co. point out all the holes in the system; un-inspected overseas cargo containers, porous border, lax security for private and cargo planes and so on and so forth. Ya da, ya da, ya da effing da. .
.

Pelosi and Company want enlargement of the Federal workforce (thus their opposition to civilianization of the Transporation Safety Authority) to the point that every conceivable terrorist threat is covered. The only way to accomplish that is to put every single man-woman-child-metrosexual-etc. on the Federal payroll (i.e., 100% Socialism) which, in turn, guarantees 100% Democrat voters in local and national elections (those on the payroll and those on the welfare dole).

Anyone too dense to see that as the Democrat ultimate goal will argue you and I until they're blue in the face. (Why do you think the national media elected to paint the Democrat states blue and Republican states red?)
 

Spoiled

Active Member
Homeland security has been doing its job, but it can always do it better... You say they will always be able to hit us? Why not make it harder? After 9-11 we made it more difficult, we didnt ignore that it happened and not make changes to air port security... The patriot act needs revising at the least... Its all partizan stuff, the left doesnt give it enough credit, the right gives it more credit than it deserves... Both to fit their political needs... thats why i dont want to ever run for an elected office, make too many enemies and you become an #######
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
well...

Why not make it harder?

How much harder is OK with you?

Security in Israel is much more prevelent than here and they still get killed and they are putting up a friggin fence. Most citizens are armed too. I think it is a law or something that there is to be at least one assault weapon in every home.

Getting on a plane is much more intrusive. You get interrogated by professionals, not someone who can't even speak the launguage.
There are checkpoints all over the place...

On and on...
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
I think it's hysterical that Nancy Pelosi is #####ing about Homeland Security "failures" when she was also #####ing about "racial profiling" at airports and "targeting" illegal immigrants. It's not even fun to debate this stuff anymore. No matter what Bush does, the Democrats are going to say it's wrong.

Social Security is in crisis - until George Bush agreed and decided to do something about it.

Take homeland security more seriously - unless it offends terrorists.

Help fight AIDS in foreign countries - but don't use our tax dollars to fund it.

Reduce health care costs - but don't reduce the number of frivolous lawsuits and enormous financial awards that are bankrupting our doctors.

It's just stupid.
 

ylexot

Super Genius
vraiblonde said:
It's not even fun to debate this stuff anymore. No matter what Bush does, the Democrats are going to say it's wrong.
Reminds me of the Monty Python "The Argument" sketch:
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't.
M: It is.
A: Not at all.
M: Now look.
A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
M: What?
A: That's it. Good morning.
:killingme
 

SmallTown

Football season!
Larry Gude said:
'haven't been attacked since 9/11" is confusing?
And if the redskins decide not to play next year, at least we won't have a losing season. Lack of an attack is hardly justification for saying we have done all we need to do to protect ourselves. Not like we have access to the terrorists Outlook Calendar and can say "Yep, we stopped that one, that one, oh look, one planned for next year, we'll get right on that"

We have never had a nuclear missle launched at the United States, but that didn't keep Reagan and now Bush from persuing the missle defense system.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
SmallTown said:
We have never had a nuclear missle launched at the United States, but that didn't keep Reagan and now Bush from persuing the missle defense system.
We've never had a nut case like North Korea's President Kim Jong Il have missles that could reach the U.S. west coast before either. Want to bet he won't use them?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
SmallTown said:
Lack of an attack is hardly justification for saying we have done all we need to do to protect ourselves.
:killingme Read that sentence again, please. Out loud. In fact, let's read it together!

"Lack of an attack is hardly justification for saying we have done all we need to do to protect ourselves. "

:killingme
 

SmallTown

Football season!
2ndAmendment said:
We've never had a nut case like North Korea's President Kim Jong Il have missles that could reach the U.S. west coast before either. Want to bet he won't use them?
This, and the overarching unknowns is exactly why I support the notion of the missile defense system and doing anything we can to help our security.
 

SmallTown

Football season!
vraiblonde said:
:killingme Read that sentence again, please. Out loud. In fact, let's read it together!

"Lack of an attack is hardly justification for saying we have done all we need to do to protect ourselves. "

:killingme
Before 9/11, would you have really thought airplanes would be used as missiles to kill thousands of people? I'm sure on 9/10 we all thought our airlines here were safe, hijackings only happened in those "other countries"
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
O Lord no...

...just because one is paranoid does not mean no one is out to get you.

Lack of an attack is hardly justification for saying we have done all we need to do to protect ourselves.

NOTE: We WILL be attacked again, sooner or later, Department of Homeland Defense or no. Statement of FACT.

In the mean time, it is a very, very simple thing to attack us and make it hurt. Hasn't happened.

Steal a fuel tanker at gunpoint, run it into a bridge abutment on the beltway. Nope.

Create some homemade bombs and head for the mall. Nope.

Take your AK and off to the pre-school you go. Nope.

I would love to hear you theory of why, seeing as Ms. Pelosi has pointed out how ineffective a job the administration has done protecting us from EVERYTHING, why, pray tell, why have we not been attacked by people who delcared war on us almost 7 years ago?

Why is no one answering the call? Certainly there are plenty of operatives here, sleeper cells, as my kids get searched getting on the plane.

Why?

In the mean time, hope you got your flu shot and don't leave home without your bubble. In fact, it's dangerous leaving home. For that matter, staying home is dangerous. What to do!?

Homeland security is a phenominal waste of time and money AND a rather large attack on all of our civil liberites and for people who scoff at WMD, the civil libertarian centric Democrats seem awfully concerned with armaggedon these days.

Killing the enemy seems to work pretty damn good.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Ok...

Before 9/11, would you have really thought airplanes would be used as missiles to kill thousands of people? I'm sure on 9/10 we all thought our airlines here were safe, hijackings only happened in those "other countries"

Just because you have no imagination doesn't mean no one else does.

Tom Clancy had an overseas 747 crash into the Capital during the State of the Union Address. How's that? Decapitate the entire US government in a snap. This was in a book 15 or 20 years ago.

Vince Flynn has Jihadists getting nuclear material from a barren Russian test range to make a dirty bomb. On a shipping container it goes. On to a small private boat, up the Potomac during Inauguration. BOOM.

Clancy again has bad guys finding a lost Israeli tactical nuke. On the boat. Into the US, blow up the Super Bowl.

Small pox and other bugs get 'what if'ed' endlessly in the US and Europe, epsecially Great Britain. They did an analysis of a release at Trafalgar Square. Radiation dispersement galore.

Pearl Harbor was predicted a few years before it happened and executed pretty much how we expected. Hell, it's how we would have done it.

People have smuggled all manner of stuff on commercial airliners for years just to prove it can be done.

I guarantee you there is a file somewhere in the Pentagon outlining pretty much what happened on 9/11 and a guarantee you it was written 10 or 15 years ago.

Sneak kinves on board.

Transcontinental flight, lotta gas.

Need about 4-5 guys to subdue the passengers and effectively take over the cockpit. Doors are EZ.

Cut somebodies throat, make it real bloody. Scare everybody.

Tell everybody it will be OK if they chill, you only want money or your dog released from Gitmo or whatever.

Hell, only one of the jihadists per plane even needed to know what was gonna happen.

1993 World Trade Bombing. Sure.

What if?

People get paid to guess at this stuff.

Read a book sometime. Scare hell out of you.
 

SmallTown

Football season!
Larry Gude said:
Killing the enemy seems to work pretty damn good.
That only works if you can actually identify the enemy. Of course it is interesting to note that none of the 9/11 hijackers were iraqis. So what we are saying is that is makes sense to go overseas to engage people who may possibly attack us, and not address the exact same problems here?
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Star Wars....

SDI or whatever you wanna call it leads the way to global peace among super powers (the bomb club).

This, and the overarching unknowns is exactly why I support the notion of the missile defense system and doing anything we can to help our security.

Develpong the ability to knock a missile out of the air or blow it up in it's silo makes ICBM's obsolete.

The reason I know Democrats have black hearts is because if they think more money will fix schools, then we simply can and will never spend enough yet, conversely, technology that can prevent a nuclear holocaust that DEMANDS endless stream of money is somehow...bad.

This is a tad different that stopping five guys from finding machine guns and taking down a church on Easter.
 

SmallTown

Football season!
Larry Gude said:
Just because you have no imagination doesn't mean no one else does.

Tom Clancy had an overseas 747 crash into the Capital during the State of the Union Address. How's that? Decapitate the entire US government in a snap. This was in a book 15 or 20 years ago.

Vince Flynn has Jihadists getting nuclear material from a barren Russian test range to make a dirty bomb. On a shipping container it goes. On to a small private boat, up the Potomac during Inauguration. BOOM.

Clancy again has bad guys finding a lost Israeli tactical nuke. On the boat. Into the US, blow up the Super Bowl.

Small pox and other bugs get 'what if'ed' endlessly in the US and Europe, epsecially Great Britain. They did an analysis of a release at Trafalgar Square. Radiation dispersement galore.

Pearl Harbor was predicted a few years before it happened and executed pretty much how we expected. Hell, it's how we would have done it.

People have smuggled all manner of stuff on commercial airliners for years just to prove it can be done.

I guarantee you there is a file somewhere in the Pentagon outlining pretty much what happened on 9/11 and a guarantee you it was written 10 or 15 years ago.

Sneak kinves on board.

Transcontinental flight, lotta gas.

Need about 4-5 guys to subdue the passengers and effectively take over the cockpit. Doors are EZ.

Cut somebodies throat, make it real bloody. Scare everybody.

Tell everybody it will be OK if they chill, you only want money or your dog released from Gitmo or whatever.

Hell, only one of the jihadists per plane even needed to know what was gonna happen.

1993 World Trade Bombing. Sure.

What if?

People get paid to guess at this stuff.

Read a book sometime. Scare hell out of you.
Thanks for proving my point that just because something hasn't happened yet that it won't, and that we are unprepared for even the most obvious scenarios :yay:
 
Top