Getting a new air handler/heat pump system installed next week. The old system had the R22 refrigerant, but the new system will have R410 refrigerant. For anyone that has a newer system with the R410 refrigerant, have you seen any difference on really hot days? I've read that the R410 refrigerant isn't as good as the old R22 refrigerant as far as cooling/AC, so I was wondering what your personal experiences are.
HVAC question about the new R410 refrigerant
- Thread starter imaref
- Start date
Thanks. I got a little worried when I read that R22 can make about a 30 degree difference in the summer, whereas R410 is only about a 20 degree difference. I had in my head that if it's 100 degrees outside that the unit would only keep it around 80 inside. Glad to know I have nothing to worry about.
Thanks for your reply.
Thanks for your reply.
steppinthrax
Active Member
You will almost never notice any difference from an operational (consumer) point of view, but may from a overall cost point of view. A R410 system needs to compress the refrigerant at a higher pressure to "superheat". Therefore the equipment may need to work harder (overall). Common sense will tell you that would lead to shorter lifespan etc. However, that may not be true, since newer materials/oils/practices may extend life in other ways. I still like old R22, only reason why it's an issue was due to the EPA. Another issue with R-410 is if there is a leak all the refrigerant has to be removed from the system (and can't be reused). This is because R-410 is a blend of several refrigerants with different boiling points. If there is a leak, one refrigerant will leak out (more) than the other. So all of the refrigerant has to be removed, it' can't be reused.
In R-22 systems, you could recover the refrigerant, repair the leak and reuse that R-22 (you just recovered) along with more R-22 to top up the system. However, R-22 is mad as hell expensive now, v.s. r-410a.
In terms of sizing, the evaporator coils, lineset and other factors for r-410 are larger. More surface area of the evap coil makes up the difference.
steppinthrax
Active Member
By following procedures, yes. Some may not do this. R410 has to be charged as a liquid (up-side-down). R-22 can be charged as a gas (right-side-up). The EPA needs to get their head out of their ass and allow certification for PROPANE based refrigeration systems.
Propane has lower compression requirements than R-22. People have illegally converted their R-22 home AC systems to Propane and find their energy bill go down a bit.
Well I'm DEFINITELY looking forward to THAT!
What I noticed is that the compressor is much louder during the winter months than the old R22 system, I imagine due to the higher pressure. And this is the top of the line Trane variable speed compressor system. The noise was so bad, and Trane had so many complaints about the noise, that they were forced to develop a sound proofing kit to fit over the compressor and install it at no cost. It's dead quiet in summer, though.
As far as the comment about it being warmer in winter than the previous system, I did experience that. I measured the temp at the register as high as 110F. Of course, my old system was 18 years old.
Footnote: I still believe this whole R22-->R410 was a conspiracy by the chemical companies to put billions in their pockets. It doesn't cost much to buy off a US Congressman these days. A few million in campaign contribs, or a few choice insider trading tips, and you can reap billions in profits.
As far as the comment about it being warmer in winter than the previous system, I did experience that. I measured the temp at the register as high as 110F. Of course, my old system was 18 years old.
Footnote: I still believe this whole R22-->R410 was a conspiracy by the chemical companies to put billions in their pockets. It doesn't cost much to buy off a US Congressman these days. A few million in campaign contribs, or a few choice insider trading tips, and you can reap billions in profits.
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steppinthrax
Active Member
If you are measuring 110F at the register you are running on AUX, there should be no way that you can get 110 out of refrigerant. Usually heat pumps put out between 14 - 24 degrees Delta T.
I'm pretty sure it was not running on AUX -- I have the computer-based TSTAT and it shows the current status, such as which HP stage, compressor speed (in per cent) and if AUX is engaged. This is the top of the line 20 SEER unit:
https://www.americanstandardair.com...ooling/heat-pumps/platinum-20-heat-pump-.html
Of course, my temp gun is Harbor Freight and may be off a few degrees. But, the guy who installed it was using his high quality gun and I'm pretty sure we were seeing up in the 105F range with his.
Next time I talk to The Guy, I'll ask him about this.
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Switched from a 12SEER R22 system to a 17SEER R410 system last year. Cut both my heating and cooling bills significantly. Theoretically, you could build an even more efficient system using R22, but a ASHR- certified system will put out what it is supposed to put out.
If you re-use the piping, make certain that the installer:
- washes the system properly to remove all traces of R22 compatible oil
- vacuums it down to check for leaks.
Some quick and dirty installers skip both steps and you end up with nothing but trouble down the line.
If you re-use the piping, make certain that the installer:
- washes the system properly to remove all traces of R22 compatible oil
- vacuums it down to check for leaks.
Some quick and dirty installers skip both steps and you end up with nothing but trouble down the line.
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My new system is installed and running. I don't have temperature readings, but I can say that the air blowing out of the vents is significantly colder than my old system. In fact, I had to turn the thermostat up a few degrees because we were too cold. The outside unit is so much more quiet than my old one.
The installers flushed the refrigerant lines with some stuff called RX11, then pushed nitrogen through the lines. They did both of these twice. They also replaced all of the flex (the silver flexible tubing).
Looking forward to some electric bill savings!
The installers flushed the refrigerant lines with some stuff called RX11, then pushed nitrogen through the lines. They did both of these twice. They also replaced all of the flex (the silver flexible tubing).
Looking forward to some electric bill savings!
PeoplesElbow
Well-Known Member
You are incorrect, my Carrier heat pump installed in 2008 puts out air between 110-115 on a 45 degree day, below 40 outside my oil heat kicks on and that air is about 135.
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