I find it troubling

ylexot

Super Genius
Originally posted by Sparx
· The best way to prevent terrorist attacks is to prepare, prepare, prepare. That requires two things: sharing intelligence information from the federal government, and equipping our fist responders with the tools they need.
response - something constituting a reply or a reaction.

"First responders" (firemen, doctors, nurses, EMTs) don't prevent anything, they respond to attacks that have already taken place.

I always find the "we need to equip our first responders to make us safe" argument to be a bad one. I agree that they need proper equipment and training, but that can only decrease the effect of an attack (treat illness/wounds/etc). I'd much rather put money into intel and other preventative measures. As the saying goes, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
 

ylexot

Super Genius
Originally posted by rraley
Democrats didn't fight the Patriot Act - it passed 99-1 in the United States Senate. What has happened is that Democrats now see that there is some abuse of the law and wish to replace it with new legislation that committs it only to terrorist activities so that civil rights are more secure. John Kerry voted for it in 2001 and he has said that he supports "90% of it." It's that other 10% that we need to work on.
What were the abuses of the law?
 

Toxick

Splat
Originally posted by ylexot
What were the abuses of the law?



Waco, Ruby Ridge... c'mon!

Blatent violations of basic rights of American citizens perpetrated by The Evil Fascist Bush Reich.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
willie...

...what would you support?

Just what kind of requirements, if any, would you expect a gun carrier to pass?

If I'm a legislator and you are to, what would I need from you to get your vote to allow a law abiding adult citizen to carry a firearm if they felt like it?

There are MILLIONS of law abiding, non-law enforcement citizens that carry a firearm every day.

You very, very rarely hear of one using their weapon illegally.

Vermont has one of the lowest incidents of violent crime in the nation and they are the only state that literally interprets the 2nd Amendment. If the home of Howard Dean is full of backwoods redneck nutballs, like him, how come they aren't killing each other? The ability to defend yourself, like a fence, makes good neighbors.

How come the highest incidents of violent crime occur in areas with the MOST restrictive interpretations of the 2nd Amendment?
People are packed in like cattle. There's no fence because there's no yard.

If you lived in a very high crime area how would you feel if you are not even allowed to keep a firearm in your home?

The 1st Amendment is illustrative of why some people believe in gun control. They think, for instance, the Dixie Chicks should be able to say whatever they want without consequence therefore an unfettered 2nd Amendment means Dodge City to them. Better for people be mouthy than shooting everyone.

In fact, we've seen that the 1st Amendment works just fine. The Chicks free spoke and other people free spoke. The Chicks were held responsible for their words by the public.

Law abiding people do not run around shooting people because there are consequences. Loss of freedom, money, etc.

Criminals do what they do because that's what criminals do and typically, gun charges are dropped right away. Jail time is a cost of business. There'll be no finacial repurcussions because criminals don't usually have a home or 401k.

The potential that someone may be armed goes directly into the criminal calculation.

Crooks don't rob the Cop Shop. they avoid homes where people may be armed. They want VICTIMS. Un-armed victims.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Sparx...

I certainly hope the Administration is following a security schedule, not a political schedule.

Why do you hope for pigs to fly? The administration is a politcal entity, just like every one before it, including Clinton, Nixon, LBJ, Lincoln and FDR.

They ARE following a political schedule. Let's just hope theirs continues to be better than Clintons which lead us to 9/11 in the first place.

The Patriot act is helping the 'security' people try prevention.
 

sleuth

Livin' Like Thanksgivin'
Re: Sparx...

Originally posted by Larry Gude

The Patriot act is helping the 'security' people try prevention.

Speaking of the Patriot Act, Larry... what do you say to someone who says the only reason they are not going to vote for GW in the upcoming election is because "he supported the Patriot Act, it's unconstitutional, and the president took an oath to uphold the Constitution." and "The important issue to me isn't whether we're secure or the economy is going well; it's whether we are having our rights to legal representation and counsel revoked by this law. According to this law, they now have the ability to hold us indefinitely without allowing us to speak to a lawyer or even without filing charges, and that is not what America is about."

Something similar to this was said to me by 2 of my very good friends, who claim their real beef isn't with GW, but more with John Ashcroft. These guys are intelligent people, and by this argument, it seems to me they are voting more on their belief in ideals than with actual practical things like national security.

I have 5 months to convince them that they're wrong. :ohwell:
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
The Patriot Act itself...

...is being used as a symbolic punching bag to scare people, like your friends, into believing that just because something CAN be done, legally, it WILL be done...to them. To all of us.

George W. Bush took an oath to defend the Consitution AND provide for the common defense AND promote the general welfare.

So did Abraham Lincoln and Franklin Roosevelt. Lincoln and FDR did things with the stroke of the pen that Bush COULD do in time of war but is instead doing much more in the spirit of the Constitution via a piece of legislation along with the consent of a majority of both chambers.

Lincoln essentially took over Maryland and FDR threw 20,000 some odd people in jail for four years. There was nothing anyone could or would do about.

The Patriot Act stands as something we, the people, can get our hands on via the legislative process.

You friends have every right to not vote for Bush for any reason they'd like, but to hold John Ashcroft responsible for the super majorities that shaped it and voted for it in the House and Senate is silly. They're going to go for the 'bogey man' that the left has set up as fall guy for those they support to keep consideration from just how many Democrats voted for it but now claim to be against it now that they've suddenly learned what is in it.

Jeuvenille.

The FBI and the CIA have had a wall built between them sometime ago with the idea that if they can't share information then they can never cause some sort of police state.

The Patriot Act may have some onerous provisions but the main goal is to allow the CIA to tell the FBI what they know about a given person and to allow the FBI to be more proactive and less reactive in nature.

The FBI are cops. They solve crimes. There is not suppossed to be crime prevention in a free society because we are all presumed innocent until proven guilty.

The thing is, when 19 murderers from another country use our freedoms to kill 3,000 people and cause 100's of billions of dollars of economic tidal waves, people suddenly could care less about rights when they hear that things were known that may have prevented the attacks.

Then, when things settle down, it becomes a politcal football.

So, for your pals, WWJFK do? Or have done that justifys helping him to office?

Nobody cares HOW the fire put out when it's burning. Later on, the firemen get second guessed about broken windows and stains on the carpet.

Fireman Kerry voted for the Act and now wants everyone to know that had it been up to him, the fire would have never started in the first place and he would not have broken windows and stained the rug.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
· It’s troubling that the Washington Post reports Bush Administration had credible intelligence about the terrorist threats they’re announcing today but held that information for a month. [Washington Post, 5/26/04, A1]

There are terrorist threats detected everyday, but that doesn't mean that they are valid. Releasing invalid information can be just as damaging as not releasing good data as our resources get expended on non-existant threats. It's better to wait and validate the data.

· The best way to prevent terrorist attacks is to prepare, prepare, prepare. That requires two things: sharing intelligence information from the federal government, and equipping our fist responders with the tools they need.

Negative. Remember that first responders are responding to something, not preventing it from happening. Also, sharing intel information is not what we need more of. The problem before 9/11 was that no agency had the authority to ACT on any of the information that they had. We do not need the FBI and the CIA whispering to one another, we need the FBI, CIA, State Police agencies, DIA, etc., pumping info to the Homeland Security folks, so that it can be effectively analyzed, and that's what's happening.

Lastly, there is one, and only one, way to 100% prevent terrorist attacks... an that is to kill the terrorist attackers before they leave for the US or other target country.

· A Government Accounting Office investigation found the process created following 9/11 to share information, “no level of government perceived the process as effective.” John Kerry believes – and I agree -- that appropriate state and local authorities should have immediate access to national terrorist lists and 24-hour operations center should be created to link local and federal law enforcement.

Think about what you're asking for. You want State officials to be out hunting for suspected terrorists when they have neither the resources of capabilities to find them? That's why we're paying the FBI and CIA and others. You start turning state officials into terrorist hunters they'll burn up lots of funding that should be used for regular policing duties and then scream for more money to keep the burglars away. The Feds are funded and much better equipped to deal with hunting down the bad guys.

· The other thing we need as local officials from the Bush Administration are the resources to protect our local communities. A study last fall by the U.S. Conference of Mayors showed 90 percent of cities had not received their share of the $1.5 billion allocated by the nation’s largest homeland security funding program.[AP, 2/12/04]

Good point, but ask yourself... shouldn't there be a priority list for dolling out funding? Shouldn't the mayors of NYC, Miami, LA, Philadelphia, Seattle, etc., get their money before the mayor of Leonardtown or Monroeville, PA? I'm sure that every mayor is salivating at the chance to blow some security money on new swimming pools to drown terrorists in city council members' backyards, but I think the money should go to the places that are the most likely targets.

· On top of that, the Bush Administration has consistently cut funding for the COPS program, which had put more than 100,000 cops on the street.[AP, 2/3/03] This comes at a time when we need our police, our “first responders” more than ever for homeland security.

The COPS program never came close to putting 100,000 new cops on the street, and many of the cops who were hired under COPS are out of work today. COPS paid 1/2 of one man year of salary... that's it. No funds for training or equipment. This meant that only agencies who could afford to cover the other 1/2 man year and other expenses could get funds. This also meant that after the first year if the agency couldn't make up the lost 1/2 man year of funding through attrition of other officers or budget increases, the COPS officer was gone. In the end, about 20,000 new officers were hired with COPS money in big cities, and about 1/3rd of those positions are gone now.

· And the Bush Administration hasn’t done nearly enough to protect ports, rails and chemical plants.

What is "enough" to protect these installations? Build 30-ft walls around them? The terrorists will get a 32-ft ladder. Safety is a game of offense, not defense. A determined attacker always has time on his side, and can always come up with ways around any defense. If you want to be safe you need to wipeout the attacker on his home turf, and that's what Bush is doing.

· It’s also a question of priorities. President Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthy cost $2.6 trillion over 10 years. But he’s only dedicated $36 billion per year to homeland security funding. No wonder the International Brotherhood of Police Officers (I.B.P.O.)– who endorsed George Bush in 2000 – are standing with John Kerry this election.

Cops want more money? Holly Cow! Next thing you know the teachers will be saying they need more money too. Once more for the thick headed... you can dump the national treasury into homeland defense and a determined attacker will find a way around your fences, mine fields, moats, etc. You need to get the bad guys BEFORE they can get to you. Offense, Offense, Offense

· For all these reasons, it’s absurd for the Bush campaign to be attacking John Kerry on homeland security. Democrats proposed the creation of the homeland security department after 9-11; it was Bush who led the fight to block it for months.

John Kerry's plan for national security is to secure good-faith promises from our enemies that they won't attack us. Then spend billions of dollars on cops, firemen, and other worthless prevention measures to make us feel safe while securing the support of all those groups. For example, I head today that Kerry says he'll get N. Korea to stop it's nuc weapons programs within four years. Yeah... just like Clinton and Carter did. He'll claim victory when N. Korea says "okay... we'll stop" and then it will fall onto the next Republican president to do something when we find out they lied... again.

Lastly, recent events have shown that Kerry's buddies in France and Germany have no qualms about selling out the US of A if there are a few Francs or Deutchmarks in it for them. Are these the people you want to rely on to help keep the US safe???

· His plan calls for: 1) Enlist the National Guard and Americorps in Homeland Security efforts to create community defense services 2) Ensure that first defenders are equipped and ready 3) Bring information technology to War on Terror 4) Reforming domestic intelligence 5) Implement public health initiatives and 6) Improve port security, bridges, tunnels and private infrastructure. [Kerry remarks regarding the “Preparedness Gap” New York, NY 7/16/03]

1. If Kerry is doing his job, option 1 shouldn't be needed. The terrorist operations should be destroyed overseas BEFORE they arrive here. Also, do you really want your mailman or the idiot down the street snooping on your house because he thinks you might be a terrorist? I would rather have an FBI agent watching my house because they've traced suspicious funds transfers or I've been calling 1-800-fund-terror a few too many times.
2. Again, first responders respond, they don't defend (even if you tried to sneak that title in.)
3. It's already in there!
4. Already been done... it's called the Department of Homeland Security... you might want to check into it.
5. I agree with you 100% on that one. Let's get the innoculations warming up in the bullpen.
6. One last time... you'll never be able to 100% defend these facilities and structures without making them unuseable... which does the terrororists work for them. Focus on killing the terrorists.
 
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