Illegal immigration issue SOLVED!!!!

[bcp]

No one has explained yet why employers will have to pay workers more simply because they're legal.

They will have to pay workers more because of taxes.
If you pay an illegal 10 under the table, he gets 10 for every hour he works.

If you pay a legal 10, he wont get 10, so to be competitive with the actual cost of living, you have to take in consideration the taxes.

so, for an employee to take home 10, you will have to pay around 13, his tax witholding will bring that down to around the actuall 10 take home. Now as an employer, you have to match his tax, (not all) and pay into workers comp based on the actual payroll dollars. so figure an extra 2 to 3 dollars per hour that you are going to contribute on top of that 13.
That workers take home of 10 will cost you almost 16 per hour by the time all is said and done.

granted in the big picture some of that expense is recovered when you file your quarterly tax for the business due to deductions and loss, but still, the weekly payroll must be met on time every week. So you have to charge to cover all payroll.

You also have to consider that certain jobs for whatever reason will run over cost, so that has to be considered and spread across all jobs or you might just run into a cashflow problem come friday when the employees that work out all day long with stone and concrete etc.. are standing in front of you looking for their paycheck.

the expenses are why Pedro and Pepe can work so cheap vs the legitimate business person.

If only you knew how many times we heard the words,, I can get it done for half that cost.....

along with fines for employers that hire the illegals, I would love to see homeowners getting hit for hiring them also.

for the most part it takes very little time before the Pedros and Pepe's realize that they can make more by doing the job on their own and charging less.

Does that explain just a little bit why they say that the cost will go up with the legal help?

 

[vraiblonde]

after all is said and done, Pedro went home with 100 dollars of your money in his pocket, I as a business owner went home with much less.

I would assume (ha ha) that if Pedro is running his own business, he'll be liable for some taxes or fees of some sort. It doesn't seem right that you, an American citizen, would pay business taxes, SS and Med matching, plus unemployment insurance, yet someone from another country can run the same business and not have to pay any of that.

How does it work now? Someone with a work Visa is employed by a US company - do they get straight up pay or is there withholding taken out?

 

[vraiblonde]

Does that explain just a little bit why they say that the cost will go up with the legal help?

Yep. And with a scenario, no less, so I can see it clearly.

along with fines for employers that hire the illegals, I would love to see homeowners getting hit for hiring them also.

I'd go for that, and I think that already happens, doesn't it? It seems to me there was some big scandal about political appointees in trouble for having illegal household help - cleaning people or nannies or some such.

 

[bcp]

I would assume (ha ha) that if Pedro is running his own business, he'll be liable for some taxes or fees of some sort. It doesn't seem right that you, an American citizen, would pay business taxes, SS and Med matching, plus unemployment insurance, yet someone from another country can run the same business and not have to pay any of that.

How does it work now? Someone with a work Visa is employed by a US company - do they get straight up pay or is there withholding taken out?

The problem is that Pedro is not running a company, Pedro is doing the work under the table with his buddies.
I actually had a customer call me and tell me that one of my guys that I fired for false numbers was out soliciting those people whos jobs he worked on for us.

and yes, if they have a valid work Visa taxes are taken out. But the issue with the illegals is that companies will work them and pay cash to them, bypassing all of the other taxes and insurances.

The cheap labor is not exactly what it means. The illegals are still taking home the same as the legals, but they are costing the employer less to have them work. So the cheap part is on the employers part when he saves the additional cost of the employee.

 

[vraiblonde]

Pedro is doing the work under the table with his buddies.

That's simple, then, because it's already illegal to do that. If caught, you get deported. End of story. And, PS, you are not a citizen and therefore not entitled to avail yourself of our judicial system.

 

[bcp]

If caught,

How can you get caught?
if the authorities actually walk up and ask if you are legal, the ACLU will be all over them for profiling spanish looking people.
so that cant happen.

you get deported.

no, what happens is that you go into the courthouse, tell them you are illegal, they then let you right back out to continue doing what you do best.

 

[willie]

The problem is that Pedro is not running a company, Pedro is doing the work under the table with his buddies.
I actually had a customer call me and tell me that one of my guys that I fired for false numbers was out soliciting those people whos jobs he worked on for us.
and yes, if they have a valid work Visa taxes are taken out. But the issue with the illegals is that companies will work them and pay cash to them, bypassing all of the other taxes and insurances.

This is why I think the new (I hope) will work. My family had the same situation. He was successful in stealing only a couple of customers but many more called and squealed on him. This experience is why I believe most of the public will put up with the higher cost if they understand the consequences.

 

[Tonio]

No. But there should be a fine to make up for those cheap wages they've been getting away with by breaking the law.

I would have no problem with that.

 

[Tonio]

I would be a bit apprehensive about the wording of that part of the bill. The same as I feel about the IRS. Some of these illegals already have some very authentic looking papers. An asshat immigration agent could wipe out an honest family business that was duped by an illegal. We need, for a change, strict enforcement but still protect our honest citizens not threaten them.

I agree. I would recommend tough penalties if the employer knew beforehand that the employees were illegals. Or if the employer found out and did nothing about it. If the employer honestly had no clue because of the allegedly authentic papers, I wouldn't impose a penalty if the employer cooperated fully with INS.

 

[Bruzilla]

They will have to pay workers more because of taxes.
If you pay an illegal 10 under the table, he gets 10 for every hour he works.

If you pay a legal 10, he wont get 10, so to be competitive with the actual cost of living, you have to take in consideration the taxes.

You also have to take into account that an illegal worker is at the mercy of his employer. Not all employers will hire an illegal, so when Pedro finds one that will hire him he needs to take whatever salary/benefits his employer will give him. Whereas BCP might pay his guys $13/hour, someone using illegals might say "the pay is $5/hr. Take it or leave it." What choice does Pedro have?

Even worse, legal workers are free to form and join unions that illegals can't, which will further drive up costs.

 

[Bruzilla]

I agree. I would recommend tough penalties if the employer knew beforehand that the employees were illegals. Or if the employer found out and did nothing about it. If the employer honestly had no clue because of the allegedly authentic papers, I wouldn't impose a penalty if the employer cooperated fully with INS.

There are two major hurdles there. First, many illegals use forged documents when obtaining jobs, so how do you differentiate the employers who genuinely didn't know the docs were fake from the ones who did? The second problem is that there's no government agency capable of tracking every employee and ensuring that every worker is legal, so you would need to dump a ton of bucks into either the DOL, the SSA, or some other group... who would then request tons more money for "badly needed computer upgrades" to replace the badly needed computer upgrades they just spent millions on that don't work. In the end you'll probably end up spending more trying to solve the problem than the problem itself is costing.

 

[BS Gal]

There are two major hurdles there. First, many illegals use forged documents when obtaining jobs, so how do you differentiate the employers who genuinely didn't know the docs were fake from the ones who did? The second problem is that there's no government agency capable of tracking every employee and ensuring that every worker is legal, so you would need to dump a ton of bucks into either the DOL, the SSA, or some other group... who would then request tons more money for "badly needed computer upgrades" to replace the badly needed computer upgrades they just spent millions on that don't work. In the end you'll probably end up spending more trying to solve the problem than the problem itself is costing.

I love mexicans. They work hard and when you are lying by your pool in California with your girlfriends and you are all 16 and pretty hot and they stare at you and say stuff (which you understand, cause daddy is fluent) , you can tell them to quit looking and threaten them with a shovel and say nasty stuff to them in Spanish. Not that I ever did that.

 

[Bruzilla]

Sure, when Pedro is jailed or deported, services are going to cost more and I'll say it again....fine with me.

There's a reason why Wal Marts are putting small businesses out of business. There's a reason that Home Depots are putting family hardware stores out of business. There's a reason why Pic and Pay Shoes is putting Mom and Pop stores out of business. The reason is that Americans are primarily price shoppers above all else. It's very easy to say you're willing to pay more... until the bills start to come in. Then when money is getting tight those discounts for goods and services derived from illegal labor start to look real inviting.

If everyone who said that they were willing to pay more for only Made in America goods, or goods produced 100% legally, or for goods sold at family businesses actually followed through, there would be no Wal Marts or Home Depots, few grocery stores, and everyhting sold in the USA would be made here. Since we're about 180 out from that, I would guess there's more talkin' than doin'.

 

[Bruzilla]

If you raise your prices to take advantage of the demise of Pedro then we will have a problem.

This adds another interesting wrinkle to the discussion. I would guess that a day that bcp can pull in a 30% profit would be a great day. More likely thanks to illegal competition, unplanned overages and expenses, bad weather, etc, the overall profit is much less, so the take home pay on payday isn't as much as desired. So, who's to say that bcp should't jack up prices once Pedro is gone? Who's to say that BCP shouldn't be making $100,000 a year instead of $50,000? Under the capitalistic system, bcp should be able to charge whatever the market will bear, so if the price of the service goes up 100% due to competition going away, and customers will pay it, then that's just another cost of doing business.

 

[vraiblonde]

Not all employers will hire an illegal, so when Pedro finds one that will hire him he needs to take whatever salary/benefits his employer will give him. Whereas BCP might pay his guys $13/hour, someone using illegals might say "the pay is $5/hr. Take it or leave it." What choice does Pedro have?

Oh no! That's just terrible when people in this country illegally can't get the same wages and benefits that legal people can!

I should write my Congressman.....

 

[vraiblonde]

The second problem is that there's no government agency capable of tracking every employee

Not true. SSA and DLLR do a fine job of tracking people based on their Social Security number.

First of all, employers are supposed to register new employees in the New Hire Registry. Second, each month they also pay their state unemployment, which breaks all employees down by SSN.

So if an employee gives a fake SSN it should take one month, three at the most, to catch them.

 

[vraiblonde]

If everyone who said that they were willing to pay more for only Made in America goods, or goods produced 100% legally, or for goods sold at family businesses actually followed through, there would be no Wal Marts or Home Depots, few grocery stores, and everyhting sold in the USA would be made here. Since we're about 180 out from that, I would guess there's more talkin' than doin'.

The difference, of course, being that it's not against the law for Wal-Mart to buy goods manufactured outside the US. Our global market doesn't include foreign workers coming to OUR country to work illegally. The idea is that they stay home and production gets outsourced THERE.

 

[vraiblonde]

Under the capitalistic system, bcp should be able to charge whatever the market will bear

Well...yeah. Are you new to the States?

If BCP jacks his prices up more than the "market will bear", some smart competitor will come in with a lower price and win the job. That's how it works, unless you're the cable company.

And, with lawncare, I can reasonably assume that if ALL lawncare companies jack their rates up, people will start thinking twice about whether they really need the service or not. This will reduce demand, and lawncare companies will start restructuring their pricing to make their services more appealing and feasible.

 

[bcp]

Well...yeah. Are you new to the States?

If BCP jacks his prices up more than the "market will bear", some smart competitor will come in with a lower price and win the job. That's how it works, unless you're the cable company.

And, with lawncare, I can reasonably assume that if ALL lawncare companies jack their rates up, people will start thinking twice about whether they really need the service or not. This will reduce demand, and lawncare companies will start restructuring their pricing to make their services more appealing and feasible.

[whisper to vrai] BCP does not provide lawn care. His company is a design install type company[/whisper to vrai]

You are correct on one thing here.
We do landscaping.
People buy landscaping because they are too busy to do it themselves.
even if I was the only company that did this type of work, I would still have to watch my price.
Im not selling something like food, or fuel or any other item that you can not live without. I am selling a service.
If everyone around started charging twice the amount for food,, you would still buy it.
If I charge twice the amount for what I do, you will put that plant in the ground your own self.

I have to watch what the market is willing to pay, I can not tell the market what they have to pay.

 

[vraiblonde]

[whisper to vrai] BCP does not provide lawn care. His company is a design install type company[/whisper to vrai]

Sorry - landscaping, not lawncare. I referred to one of Larry's clients (a major grower with a landscaping subsidiary) as "lawncare" and he still teases me about it.

But it's the same business principal.