Informed about the Iraq War?

[Mateo]

You left one thing out of this. The MSM has an agenda. They know they have very uneducated, passive minds to push their propaganda on. They know they can affect the political landscape simply by planting anti-whatever info to affect what people think. Obama is the best current example of this. Have you ever seen anyone gain so much politcal capital without even having to articulate who they are and what their purpose is? No one knows anything about this guy, yet the media made him their darling and propped him up for the win.

I agree that the msm has an agenda. I agree that Obama is their darling/ However, I don't think it is the uneducated only that they foist their opinion on, but minds that are educated also but lacking in common sense . This should serve for a number of the "youth" and noveau rich that gravitate towards Obama. They think that by taking away from those who work or have paid their dues and giving to those whom are too lazy or like to shout about entitlements that they are making things right. The leftist media likes to think of themselves as the forefront of this movement. They think they are media stars and their followers and adherents pimp up thir image. In my analogy of the Japanese correspondent, they are the propaganda merchants who scream to the rooftops of victory, when in the truthful process, they are in denial of the chaos they have wrought. The correspondent is anyone who seems to think there is a fly in the ointment and checks out other sources in the quest for the truth.
I place you, larry and others like yourselves in that group....you don't seem like the gullible sloganeering type and you have my respect, for what it's worth.
As for being informed or misinformed about Iraq, I am sceptical of the MSM. I used to think Keith Oldurman made sense until he jumped on the Obama bandwagon with the rest of them. So I have taken to reading overseas sources like the BBC for most of my news, as well as to a number of the conservative forums. I also talk to a number of the servicemen who have come back. If anyone knows what is going on the ground, it is them.
They make a lot more sense than some media star.

 

[PsyOps]

I agree that the msm has an agenda. I agree that Obama is their darling/ However, I don't think it is the uneducated only that they foist their opinion on, but minds that are educated also but lacking in common sense . This should serve for a number of the "youth" and noveau rich that gravitate towards Obama. They think that by taking away from those who work or have paid their dues and giving to those whom are too lazy or like to shout about entitlements that they are making things right. The leftist media likes to think of themselves as the forefront of this movement. They think they are media stars and their followers and adherents pimp up thir image. In my analogy of the Japanese correspondent, they are the propaganda merchants who scream to the rooftops of victory, when in the truthful process, they are in denial of the chaos they have wrought. The correspondent is anyone who seems to think there is a fly in the ointment and checks out other sources in the quest for the truth.
I place you, larry and others like yourselves in that group....you don't seem like the gullible sloganeering type and you have my respect, for what it's worth.
As for being informed or misinformed about Iraq, I am sceptical of the MSM. I used to think Keith Oldurman made sense until he jumped on the Obama bandwagon with the rest of them. So I have taken to reading overseas sources like the BBC for most of my news, as well as to a number of the conservative forums. I also talk to a number of the servicemen who have come back. If anyone knows what is going on the ground, it is them.
They make a lot more sense than some media star.

First of all let me clarify what I mean by the uneducated. I don’t mean those that can’t read or don’t have a basic understanding of things because of their lack of education. I’m talking about those that are, by choice, complacent to what’s going on to the extent that they refuse to do any research of their own. They would rather be spoon-fed. So, from that context the media views all of us as uneducated. With the exception of a very few that do their homework through many sources, the media knows they have a huge target audience with their garbage.

As of right now the leftist media is at the forefront of the movement you described. You can see it in the progressive and socialist direction this country is moving. This anti-war movement has much more to do with just being against the war. I promise you if Al Gore had won CINC and got us into Iraq the media wind would have blown in a completely different direction.

It seems you are taking a smart path to getting the fullest, most honest picture of what’s going that you can. Not very many people do this. That is where I see the problem I suppose. But even bigger than that is a MSM that knows this and aims to use peoples’ complacency as a means to focus their propaganda. I don’t think anyone can honestly look at the media anymore as a source of honest and unbiased news.

 

[Mateo]

Then we agree that w are converging on the same goal, though from divergent paths...lol...as you have said, it is easy to be complacent and sadly that is the norm today. MSM's agenda is indeed thought control and despite their protestations, they are the very example of Orwell's 1984..or maybe even more sinister, Animal Farm.
I am reminded of my Russian History courses, when Alexander II was assasinated by radicals when he was on the verge of liberating the serfs of Tsarist Russia and as Peter the Great would have said dragged the country "kicking and screaming" into the modern world. He was an absolute autocrat, but even he recognized that if he did nothing to improve the lot of those who worked the land and the factories, then he was inviting in an eventual revolution that would doom the Romanov dynasty. Instead, he was done in by impatient radicals who bought an even bigger autocrat in Nicholas II who reversed Alexander's reforms, and after the disasters of the Russo-Japanese wars and WW1, was overthrown by the Marxists and his whole family and dynasty ended as foreseen.
A definite case of being careful for what you wish for, as the October 1917 Revolution begat Lenin, which begat Trotsky and Stalin, and the the unfortunate victims were the Russian people, who endured the privitations up until our own time.
Sort of a primer of warning to our own up and coming socialists, don't you agree. However, I unfortunately think such a lesson goes over their heads.

 

[PsyOps]

Sort of a primer of warning to our own up and coming socialists, don't you agree. However, I unfortunately think such a lesson goes over their heads.

It's what so many fear and so many welcome. It boils down to a grave mistinterpretation of the Constitution; the belief that there are no limits to our rights. That these rights even exist in their extremes without responsibility or concern for others. And that people don't require any sort of sacrifice and they are entitled to everything from the government. Kennedy would have lost his election bid with his "As not..." line. Today's people would have rolled their eyes at him.

 

[The Oyster Guy]

...it's all a conspiracy by the "librul media".

Question. What member of the librul media wrote the following:

If anything, the national press corps was probably too deferential to the White House and to the administration in regard to the most important decision facing the nation during my years in Washington, the choice over whether to go to war in Iraq. The collapse of the administration’s rationales for war, which became apparent months after our invasion, should never have come as such a surprise. … In this case, the ‘liberal media’ didn’t live up to its reputation. If it had, the country would have been better served.

Answer. It was Scott McClellan, former Press Secretary to George W. Bush. The quotation is from McClellan's new book “What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington’s Culture of Deception”


Exclusive: McClellan whacks Bush, White House - Mike Allen - Politico.com

 

[PsyOps]

...it's all a conspiracy by the "librul media".

Question. What member of the librul media wrote the following:





























Answer. It was Scott McClellan, former Press Secretary to George W. Bush. The quotation is from McClellan's new book “What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington’s Culture of Deception”


Exclusive: McClellan whacks Bush, White House - Mike Allen - Politico.com

In the name of selling books and making money. So much of what McClellan write has already been disputed which can call into doubt most of what he wrote. Neither her not there, if you are in denial that the MSM had an anti-war, anti-Bush agenda then you just haven't paid attention. The constant barrage of IEDs and body counts. The constant charge that Bush lied. The endless exploitation of certain soldier misconduct, the absolute lie by Dan Rather about Bush's guard duty, and the conscious purposeful omission of any sort of good news that was occurring in Iraq on a daily basis. The endless parade of left-wing congressional hacks deeming this war as lost and calling our troops terrorists, cold blooded murderers and torturers. Resorting to the simplistic of calling Bush a liar. Past presidents breaking the unwritten rule of speaking out against and criticizing a sitting president. The vitriol of the likes we’ve never seen before from the Huff Post, DailyKos and Moveon has become acceptable under the guise of free speech.

Now McClellan realizes the green he aims to gain from this. There’s no money in showing support for Bush. It’s not fashionable to agree with Bush; in fact it’s career-ending. Money over truth and loyalty. What a stinking shame. God bless the freedoms of this country.

 

[Mateo]

It's what so many fear and so many welcome. It boils down to a grave mistinterpretation of the Constitution; the belief that there are no limits to our rights. That these rights even exist in their extremes without responsibility or concern for others. And that people don't require any sort of sacrifice and they are entitled to everything from the government. Kennedy would have lost his election bid with his "As not..." line. Today's people would have rolled their eyes at him.

As it was, Nixon came close to beating JFK. I think this is a lost point on many who have visions of a return to "Camelot".
We all dream of "how much better things were when we were young". The fact is that some of us realize that those days are gone and as much as we want, they will never return, so it is best to get on with the business of life and living day by day.
That is not to say it isn't fun to imagine that gas was 22 cents a gallon again, your dollar went a little further, $5 Levi Jeans and bigger candy bars ( and Dr Pepper in real glass bottles !) but living in the past will never return you to the days of your youth.
We all grow up sometime and realize that there are rules, limitations and restrictions that one has to live within in order to make the society orderly. Otherwise, we would be saddled with unbridled chaos and people making up the rules as they see fit.
Dame Edith Hamilton, in her excellent works on the Greeks and Romans, stated that"Freedom is realizing that you have to live within restrictions"
Janis Joplin sang it so eloquently, in Kris Kristofferson's song:
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose"
I think it even best in the words of the many servicemen and women who have given their lives from Concord Green down to the deserts of Iraq:
"Freedom isn't cheap...once you lose it, it is hard to recover, but not impossible"
Another lesson that goes over the head of those who don't think that they need to pay any price for it

 

[The Oyster Guy]

In the name of selling books and making money. So much of what McClellan write has already been disputed which can call into doubt most of what he wrote. Neither her not there, if you are in denial that the MSM had an anti-war, anti-Bush agenda then you just haven't paid attention. The constant barrage of IEDs and body counts. The constant charge that Bush lied. The endless exploitation of certain soldier misconduct, the absolute lie by Dan Rather about Bush's guard duty, and the conscious purposeful omission of any sort of good news that was occurring in Iraq on a daily basis. The endless parade of left-wing congressional hacks deeming this war as lost and calling our troops terrorists, cold blooded murderers and torturers. Resorting to the simplistic of calling Bush a liar. Past presidents breaking the unwritten rule of speaking out against and criticizing a sitting president. The vitriol of the likes we’ve never seen before from the Huff Post, DailyKos and Moveon has become acceptable under the guise of free speech.

Now McClellan realizes the green he aims to gain from this. There’s no money in showing support for Bush. It’s not fashionable to agree with Bush; in fact it’s career-ending. Money over truth and loyalty. What a stinking shame. God bless the freedoms of this country.

Yeah, it's all about the benjamins... Scott McClellan just fabricated everything simply to sell books.
Hey, maybe he was really a left-wing mole all along - that MSM is pretty sneaky!!!

As a Texas loyalist who followed Bush to Washington with great hope and personal affection and as a proud member of his administration, I was all too ready to give him and his highly experienced foreign policy advisers the benefit of the doubt on Iraq. Unfortunately, subsequent events have showed that our willingness to trust the judgment of Bush and his team was misplaced.

- Scott McClellan

Better go fix yourself a big batch of koolaid - you're gonna be needing it to get yourself through this one...

 

[RadioPatrol]

The Vietnamese were the first to fight a war on our soil using our press and our politicians against us. Our current enemies have learned from these lessons, and are doing a pretty good job of it themselves.

Was that not proven to be the KGB and the Russians ?

 

[PsyOps]

Yeah, it's all about the benjamins... Scott McClellan just fabricated everything simply to sell books.
Hey, maybe he was really a left-wing mole all along - that MSM is pretty sneaky!!!

- Scott McClellan

Better go fix yourself a big batch of koolaid - you're gonna be needing it to get yourself through this one...

He’s already been exposed with some fallacies in the book. Like his contention that Rove rarely had any contact with Libby. Rove stated that, for years, Libby’s desk was about 20 feet from his. I’m anxious to see what else gets shot down. I’m sure some of it is true. This whole thing has done nothing more than confirm to the Bush-haters what they already believe and the left’s motivation to trump up charges in order to impeach or take the man to trial.

And your charge that I am a Bush cool-aid drinker… you don’t know me very well, do you?

 

[The Oyster Guy]

I don't know you from Adam, that's true...

However, I found this thread amusing in that many of the posters (you included) ranted about the bias of the librul media, and here we see Scott McClellan confirming much of what the Left has been saying about the Bush Whitehouse for years: that the Iraq war was sold to the American people with a sophisticated "political propaganda campaign" aimed at "manipulating sources of public opinion" (McClellans words in quotations).

 

[PsyOps]

I don't know you from Adam, that's true...

However, I found this thread amusing in that many of the posters (you included) ranted about the bias of the librul media, and here we see Scott McClellan confirming much of what the Left has been saying about the Bush Whitehouse for years: that the Iraq war was sold to the American people with a sophisticated "political propaganda campaign" aimed at "manipulating sources of public opinion" (McClellans words in quotations).

In the beginning if you called me a Bush cool-aid drinker I might have agreed with you. Over time much has happened and Bush (along with the rest of the GOP) has left a bad taste in my mouth. I've always agreed this was the right war but fought wrong. I primarily blame Bush because he allowed so many things go wrong for too long. But I also, in equal part, blame the left's (along with the complicit MSM) negativity campaign against Bush and the war. Their whole motives have nothing to do with disagreeing with the war. It has to do with politics and regaining power.

That being said, there is much money to be made castigating Bush. It's an easy 15 minutes and millions in sales. Everyone wants to jump on board. After watching the talking heads over the past couple of days I have concluded that there is enough garbage in that book to make me doubt the purpose behind it. McClellan seems to be capitalizing on the moment before it's gone. He knows that once Bush is out of the WH it wont sell. The timing is just too perfect for me. I'm sure much of what McClellan wrote is true. But it's no different than any other president.

Quite frankly I’m fed up with all the disloyalty, backstabbing and lies. I’m fed up with not knowing the truth about what Bush knew and I’m fed up with all the folks simplifying everyone down to “Bush lied…”. It’s time to move on and get this done. This book just adds to the noise as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Mateo]

the rats have been leaving the ship, but like in all the recent administrations, this is common practice. Loyalty is skin deep, especially where $$ are involved.

 

[PsyOps]

the rats have been leaving the ship, but like in all the recent administrations, this is common practice. Loyalty is skin deep, especially where $$ are involved.

That's the d@mn shame of it all. No sense of what made this country what it is and what is required to keep it that way. It's an unfortunate fact, but this country was built on the back of war. In fact you’d be hard-pressed to find a free, democratic country in this world that wasn’t and didn’t have American blood spilt for it. Hundreds of thousands died so we can live in our disloyal, unappreciative, selfish fashion. The greatest country in the world is slipping through the fingers of better sense for the big dollar.

 

[Penn]

That's the d@mn shame of it all. No sense of what made this country what it is and what is required to keep it that way. It's an unfortunate fact, but this country was built on the back of war. In fact you’d be hard-pressed to find a free, democratic country in this world that wasn’t and didn’t have American blood spilt for it. Hundreds of thousands died so we can live in our disloyal, unappreciative, selfish fashion. The greatest country in the world is slipping through the fingers of better sense for the big dollar.

So sad, however, very, very true.

 

[wildsage]

...it's all a conspiracy by the "librul media".

Question. What member of the librul media wrote the following:

I know! I know! It was either William Kristol ("I admit it: the liberal media were never that powerful, and the whole thing was often used as an excuse by conservatives for conservative failures.") or Pat Buchanan ("The truth is, I've gotten fairer, more comprehensive coverage of my ideas than I ever imagined I would receive.[...]I've gotten balanced coverage and broad coverage -- all we could have asked… For heaven sakes, we kid about the liberal media, but every Republican on earth does that.").

 

[wildsage]

...it's all a conspiracy by the "librul media".

Question. What member of the librul media wrote the following:

Answer. It was Scott McClellan, former Press Secretary to George W. Bush. The quotation is from McClellan's new book “What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington’s Culture of Deception”

Exclusive: McClellan whacks Bush, White House - Mike Allen - Politico.com

Doh! I guessed twice before I saw the answer hidden at the end.

 

[wildsage]

Over time much has happened and Bush (along with the rest of the GOP) has left a bad taste in my mouth.

!!! hopefully it's just the kool-aid.

But I also, in equal part, blame the left's (along with the complicit MSM) negativity campaign against Bush and the war.

Yah, we needed more yes-men on the case (or yes-women if you consider the likes of NY Times' Judith Miller).

That being said, there is much money to be made castigating Bush. It's an easy 15 minutes and millions in sales. Everyone wants to jump on board...But it's no different than any other president.

Like there isn't a huge market for former insiders to keep parroting the same old lies on the paid-speech & ghost-written book circuit. There have been as many or more millions made by preaching to the choir.
But face it, some people grow a conscience: once they are no longer in a job where they are paid $$ to tell lies, why shouldn't they 'fess up?

I’m fed up with not knowing the truth about what Bush knew and I’m fed up with all the folks simplifying everyone down to “Bush lied…”. It’s time to move on and get this done. This book just adds to the noise as far as I’m concerned.

"I just don't know, so lets move on so this icky feeling goes away."

 

[Mateo]

That's the d@mn shame of it all. No sense of what made this country what it is and what is required to keep it that way. It's an unfortunate fact, but this country was built on the back of war. In fact you’d be hard-pressed to find a free, democratic country in this world that wasn’t and didn’t have American blood spilt for it. Hundreds of thousands died so we can live in our disloyal, unappreciative, selfish fashion. The greatest country in the world is slipping through the fingers of better sense for the big dollar.

Yet my friend, I will not give up on it and would fight like the devil to keep us free. As we have spoken in other forums, I know you are a kindred spirit and would not let things go without a fight either. We are thousands and millions ..so I have to keep the faith.
Like you said, no democratic country has brought their freedom cheap, which is why we should value every bit of it even more.
Unfortunately we have been led to believe that coveting our neighbors possessions or attempting to emulate them should be the focal points of our lives. Failure to keep up or overtake , we are told by Madison Avenue and Wall street, is a sign of weakness. Never is such a thing so untrue, but we are bombarded each day with this subtle form of mind control...no wonder, so many of us are easily misled.
Sometimes it takes a lot more courage to say No than to follow along.
I don't think we have much to believe in from those whom we have elected and the comic trajedy that we see following the end of each administration should shame us.

 

[PsyOps]

!!! hopefully it's just the kool-aid.

Very funny. You’re really hooked on this cool-aid thing. Unlike you, I don’t walk the party line. When I agree with something I agree. When I disagree I disagree. I have been quite open about my problems with Bush, the war, and the GOP. I have also been honest about where I agree. How that makes me a cool-aid drinker is really quite puzzling. I suppose unless you’re in complete opposition to Bush and bought into that Bush is just a compulsive liar then you’re a cool-aid drinker. Nothing could better define a cool-aid drinker than someone that believes that.

Yah, we needed more yes-men on the case (or yes-women if you consider the likes of NY Times' Judith Miller).

No, what we need is more people saying no for the sake of saying no; just because they have clung to an agenda. You seem to define this character. Funny how you picked the NYT. Why is that? Perhaps a covert admission that they are indeed left wing?

Like there isn't a huge market for former insiders to keep parroting the same old lies on the paid-speech & ghost-written book circuit. There have been as many or more millions made by preaching to the choir.
But face it, some people grow a conscience: once they are no longer in a job where they are paid $$ to tell lies, why shouldn't they 'fess up?

Yup, there we go again. Bush lied. Another Bush mind-reader. So, I guess if you agree with Bush and the war you have no conscience. If you dissent then suddenly you grow a conscience and have become an honest man/woman, even if that dissent could be based in a lie. Want some more cool-aid with that?