Is this an over reaction?

Did the school adminstration over react or not?

  • The school adminstration over reacted.

    Votes: 30 88.2%
  • The school adminstration was right to call the police.

    Votes: 4 11.8%

  • Total voters
    34

rpexie

.:Georgia Peach:.
Stupid. I cant believe that nonsense, I used to draw on desks. I always erased whatever doodle it was before class was over but I definitely did doodle. I cant imagine getting arrested for that.


What the hell did the cops say? I agree with what another poster said, when did Cops become a part of school discipline?
 

rpexie

.:Georgia Peach:.
I can't help to think that a good paddling would've been a better choice. Too bad pricipals aren't allowed to do that anymore. Maybe make her folks should have to pay for the desk. Maybe the girl could mop floors at the school on Saturdays. It just seems that there were better options than having to call the police.

I hate to think what would happen if someone ever spanked my kid. They really would need to call the police! :smack:
I definitely agree making her clean desks or mop or something would have been a fitting punishment.
 

libertytyranny

Dream Stealer
Problem is, when laws are interpreted by say, me..I am fine...but let some hippy dippy moron interpret them..and you get that little boy who was sent for mental evaluation because he drew a picture of Jesus on the cross. That's where zero tolerance comes in..to even things out. Unfortunately things like this happen. Stupid really, but a 12 yo should be able to control themselves drawing on a desk. Should she have been arrested? No that is stupid..it's not really against the law. But should she be punished? YES. Absolutely. Harshly. Why? because vandalizing someone else's property isn't cute.

as an aside..did you know that research has consistently shown that graduated punishments are the absolute WORST way to get a desired behavior? Warning, then severe punishment is the best. Severe enough to stop the behavior for good. Perhaps she should have to go from classroom to classroom washing everyone's desk..even that cute boy's she likes in math..it would embarrass the hell out of her.
 

Merlin99

Visualize whirled peas
PREMO Member
I hate to think what would happen if someone ever spanked my kid. They really would need to call the police! :smack:
I definitely agree making her clean desks or mop or something would have been a fitting punishment.

Even if by doing this it keeps them out of more trouble later?
 

bcp

In My Opinion
The student didn't "throw" the snack as to assault someone, it was more of a "Here, I don't want this, you can have it..." toss.

I'd agree with you if it was done to hurt someone, but it wasn't.
how the hell you going to hurt someone with a frickin ho-ho?

maybe if you kept giving them ho-hos all day every day for a few months till they had to hit the spandex isle at k-mart, but just tossing one ho-ho?
was it propelled out of a hair spray powered ho-ho cannon?
 

bcp

In My Opinion
I think calling the police on the kids for every little thing is a good idea, it teaches them the proper way to be victims in our pansy-ass liberal society.
Somebody does something to you, or if you are in a life or death situation, call the police and wait....
....
...
...

keep waiting, they WILL be here before you are assaulted,

....
....
...

Maybe we should just teach the kids that immediate reprimand is sometimes best....
 

winters

New Member
Definatly over the top, that principal should be fired.

Yes, that would not be too over the top for an over the top response.

The principal did a ridiculous thing, but fire him because he reacted poorly, but not unlawfully to an unlawful act?
 
E

EmptyTimCup

Guest
Several studies have confirmed that the time an expelled child spends away from school increases the chance that child will drop out and wind up in the criminal justice system, according to a January 2010 study from the Advancement Project, a legal action group.


:otter:


it is stupid law .... you get expelled for playing Cops and Robbers on the Play ground pointing with your finger like it is a GUN
 
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glitch

Devil's Advocate
Problem is, when laws are interpreted by say, me..I am fine...but let some hippy dippy moron interpret them..and you get that little boy who was sent for mental evaluation because he drew a picture of Jesus on the cross. That's where zero tolerance comes in..to even things out. Unfortunately things like this happen. Stupid really, but a 12 yo should be able to control themselves drawing on a desk. Should she have been arrested? No that is stupid..it's not really against the law. But should she be punished? YES. Absolutely. Harshly. Why? because vandalizing someone else's property isn't cute.

as an aside..did you know that research has consistently shown that graduated punishments are the absolute WORST way to get a desired behavior? Warning, then severe punishment is the best. Severe enough to stop the behavior for good. Perhaps she should have to go from classroom to classroom washing everyone's desk..even that cute boy's she likes in math..it would embarrass the hell out of her.

Actually, the research has shown that punishment is the least effective method for correcting problematic behavior. I'd love to see the research you're referring to because I seemed to have missed it.

Here's the truth for those of you that are interested...

"Punishment suppresses undesirable behavior but may not necessarily eliminate it (McDaniel, 1980). In some cases, suppression may be of short duration, and when the punishment is removed, the behavior may reoccur. Punishment can involve presentation of an unpleasant consequence or the loss of a pleasurable consequence following the occurrence of the undesirable behavior. Punishment is designed to reduce the probability that the behavior that precedes it will reoccur. Although punishment is an efficient way of changing behavior, it can become seductive and reinforcing for classroom teachers and can be overused. The greatest problem with punishment is that it does not provide an appropriate model of acceptable behavior. Furthermore, in many classrooms, punishment is accompanied by an emotional response from the teacher. Although most teachers consider punishment as involving a reprimand, time-out, or loss of an activity such as recess, in many classrooms, physical punishment designed to embarrass children into submission is still used, even though it has a high emotional cost. Shea and Bauer (1987) made a strong case for minimizing the use of punishment, especially more severe punishment, such as embarrassment or spanking, because these interventions are likely to erode self-esteem and further impair an already strained teacher-student relationship."

Quote from: LD OnLine :: Behavior Modification in the Classroom
 
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libertytyranny

Dream Stealer
Actually, the research has shown that punishment is the least effective method for correcting problematic behavior. I'd love to see the research you're referring to because I seemed to have missed it.

Here's the truth for those of you that are interested...

"Punishment suppresses undesirable behavior but may not necessarily eliminate it (McDaniel, 1980). In some cases, suppression may be of short duration, and when the punishment is removed, the behavior may reoccur. Punishment can involve presentation of an unpleasant consequence or the loss of a pleasurable consequence following the occurrence of the undesirable behavior. Punishment is designed to reduce the probability that the behavior that precedes it will reoccur. Although punishment is an efficient way of changing behavior, it can become seductive and reinforcing for classroom teachers and can be overused. The greatest problem with punishment is that it does not provide an appropriate model of acceptable behavior. Furthermore, in many classrooms, punishment is accompanied by an emotional response from the teacher. Although most teachers consider punishment as involving a reprimand, time-out, or loss of an activity such as recess, in many classrooms, physical punishment designed to embarrass children into submission is still used, even though it has a high emotional cost. Shea and Bauer (1987) made a strong case for minimizing the use of punishment, especially more severe punishment, such as embarrassment or spanking, because these interventions are likely to erode self-esteem and further impair an already strained teacher-student relationship."

Quote from: LD OnLine :: Behavior Modification in the Classroom



That has nothing to do with it. That article is simply saying that punishment can be abused; something most are aware of.It also mentions emotional cueing and response, something that is unrelated to the punishment itself. Also it talks about degrading "self esteem" something intensly subjective. What I meant was, in the case of punishment, gradual punishment is not effective, severe immediate punishment is. I did not mean to insinuate that punishment is best in general, that was a grammar misuse on my part.

This does not mean punishment is not effective, or necessary. I suggest you look up B.F Skinner..His groundbreaking work on operant conditioning really applies to classrooms. It would take too long to get into the theory here..but it is basic reinforcement (negative or positive) and punishment. Reinforcement makes a behavior more likely to occur, punishment makes it less likely. You could avoid punishing to get the correct behavior, ONLY if the child never performed an undesirable behavior or if you can identify whatever is reinforcing the behavior and eliminating it (extinction of undesirable behavior). If they were good all the time, and reinforced for it, then punishment would not be needed. Unfortunately I know of no such child. Punishment is required so that an organism (child) experiences something bad (I use bad to differentiate from negative, something different according to Skinner) and no longer does the behavior, so they do not "learn" it. This all works on the basic assumption that the organism does these behaviors (whether desirable or undesirable) because they gain something from it. If the reinforcer cannot be found or removed the trick is to punish it severely enough that they do not do the behavior again and do not learn to be reinforced by it. Punishment should not be used to control behavior, rather it is used solely in the instance that behavior needs to stop when it can not be extinguished. (by removing reinforcer, though this can still be punishment, depending on your theorist:)

What I was speaking about is true, severe punishment stops the behavior quicker, and lasts longest( now of course, "strong" does not mean abuse, it must be tailored to the child and situation but be sufficient for instance a strong reprimand can be severe enough for a sensitive child) than gradual punishment, that schedule is the least effective.. In fact reinforcing every time your child does something good isn't the way to get desirable behavior either. A variable schedule is best, that is, that the amount of behaviors to get a reinforcer varies. This has been repeatedly shown to have the longest impact on behavior and reduce the probability of extinction (that is, they no longer perform the desirable behavior).

:buddies:
 

glitch

Devil's Advocate
That has nothing to do with it. That article is simply saying that punishment can be abused; something most are aware of.It also mentions emotional cueing and response, something that is unrelated to the punishment itself. Also it talks about degrading "self esteem" something intensly subjective. What I meant was, in the case of punishment, gradual punishment is not effective, severe immediate punishment is. I did not mean to insinuate that punishment is best in general, that was a grammar misuse on my part.

This does not mean punishment is not effective, or necessary. I suggest you look up B.F Skinner..His groundbreaking work on operant conditioning really applies to classrooms. It would take too long to get into the theory here..but it is basic reinforcement (negative or positive) and punishment. Reinforcement makes a behavior more likely to occur, punishment makes it less likely. You could avoid punishing to get the correct behavior, ONLY if the child never performed an undesirable behavior or if you can identify whatever is reinforcing the behavior and eliminating it (extinction of undesirable behavior). If they were good all the time, and reinforced for it, then punishment would not be needed. Unfortunately I know of no such child. Punishment is required so that an organism (child) experiences something bad (I use bad to differentiate from negative, something different according to Skinner) and no longer does the behavior, so they do not "learn" it. This all works on the basic assumption that the organism does these behaviors (whether desirable or undesirable) because they gain something from it. If the reinforcer cannot be found or removed the trick is to punish it severely enough that they do not do the behavior again and do not learn to be reinforced by it. Punishment should not be used to control behavior, rather it is used solely in the instance that behavior needs to stop when it can not be extinguished. (by removing reinforcer, though this can still be punishment, depending on your theorist:)

What I was speaking about is true, severe punishment stops the behavior quicker, and lasts longest( now of course, "strong" does not mean abuse, it must be tailored to the child and situation but be sufficient for instance a strong reprimand can be severe enough for a sensitive child) than gradual punishment, that schedule is the least effective.. In fact reinforcing every time your child does something good isn't the way to get desirable behavior either. A variable schedule is best, that is, that the amount of behaviors to get a reinforcer varies. This has been repeatedly shown to have the longest impact on behavior and reduce the probability of extinction (that is, they no longer perform the desirable behavior).

:buddies:

Thanks for the lesson in behaviorist theories but I utilize ABA/FBAs on a daily basis so I understand the basic principles.

The bottom line is, punishment is the least effective behavioral modification tool and what I got out of your earlier statement was that you were advocating its use to modify behavior. If that is not the case, I apologize.

"Skinner has been quoted saying "Punishment is the tool of a weak teacher." I think that says it all.

From: Applied Behavior Analysis: Current Topics: Punishment
 
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