Jesus, Son of David

[libby]

I was recently reading up on Jesus' genealogy for the (probably) first time. His ancestors are listed as on Joseph's side of the family, yet we know Jesus was not Joseph's son.
How does this reconcile for someone who believes that the "Bible alone" is the sole rule of faith? According to Scripture Jesus was not in the Davidic line, so it seems quite legitimate to challenge either Jesus' claim as the prophesied Messiah, or the Trinity, or both.
For anyone who isn't familiar with my beliefs, I am, most emphatically, a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. But I also consider it very important to know the Scriptures and be able to defend them without having to talk out of both sides of the mouth.

 

[Dymphna]

By law, Jesus is the son of Joseph, since he was born during the marriage and as such belonged to the house of David. That's all the genealogists of the time would have cared about.

 

[~mellabella~]

Why are the responses getting removed?

I went to edit it and said screw it. lol. I'll reply later when I have more time to post references

 

[Toxick]

Why are the responses getting removed?

Vast Christian conspiracy.

The cabal[1] does not want certain posts to be read.












[1]There is no cabal.

 

[~mellabella~]

Vast Christian conspiracy.

The cabal[1] does not want certain posts to be read.












[1]There is no cabal.

 

[migtig]

I think Dymph's answer is correct, but why not trace his mother Mary's bloodlines? I know she's the daughter of Joachim and Anne.

Here's the wiki answer
Genealogy of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dymphna]

I think Dymph's answer is correct, but why not trace his mother Mary's bloodlines? I know she's the daughter of Joachim and Anne.

Here's the wiki answer
Genealogy of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Miggy, you KNOW the answer to that....the men were in charge. They wrote the story the way they wanted. The women were only baby factories. Which also explains why it didn't matter to anyone who Jesus' bio-dad was. Joseph was married to Mary, and there were no such things as DNA test to prove the issue otherwise.

 

[Marie]

I was recently reading up on Jesus' genealogy for the (probably) first time. His ancestors are listed as on Joseph's side of the family, yet we know Jesus was not Joseph's son.
How does this reconcile for someone who believes that the "Bible alone" is the sole rule of faith? According to Scripture Jesus was not in the Davidic line, so it seems quite legitimate to challenge either Jesus' claim as the prophesied Messiah, or the Trinity, or both.
For anyone who isn't familiar with my beliefs, I am, most emphatically, a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. But I also consider it very important to know the Scriptures and be able to defend them without having to talk out of both sides of the mouth.

.
Whats actually cool is Jesus is from the line of David on both his Mother and his fathers side. Way cool EHH ?
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD bgColor=#f0fff2>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]HOW COULD JESUS BE A DESCENDANT OF DAVID[/FONT]</TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2>

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bible general Archive 1[/FONT]​

</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD colSpan=5>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Because in the Jewish genealogy, the "mother side" is used to trace back the validity of citizenship and thus if a person is considered a true Jew or not. Since Mary was a true descendant of David, her son, Jesus as well as his brothers and sisters were true descendants of David.[/FONT]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD bgColor=#f0fff2>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]HOW COULD JESUS BE A DESCENDANT OF DAVID[/FONT]</TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2>

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bible general Archive 1[/FONT]​

</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD colSpan=5>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus, the Messiah, Deliverer, Son of God and King of Kings, was concieved by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. The fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily in Jesus while he was in every way a human being. Jesus was not fathered by any man, since no man had been with Mary (Luke 1:34). And Joseph, Mary's betrothed husband, at first struggled to accept this fact but later accepted it (Matthew 1:19-25). But Jesus had to be 'brought up' or 'brought forth' from the line of David; he Himself had to find his earthly beginnings and achieve his earthly ministry while being of the Kingly heritage of David. God's promise to David is ultimately fulfilled by Jesus as David's 'descendant' of whom it was promised in 2 Samuel 7:16, and in the line of Judah in Genesis 49:10: both fulfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ! And Luke 3:23-38 shows the 'direct line' genealogy from Mary, the vessel in which God used to deliver His only Son into this world, all the way down to David, and it even goes from David to Adam! And if you look in Matthew 1:1-17, you can see how Joseph, who was the step-father of Jesus, was also in the Kingly heritage, being a descendant of King David. So Jesus was in fact a descendant of David as well as being part of the royal heritage as promised by God. Now you ask: "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" (Matthew 22:41-46) They said to Him, "The son of David." Jesus said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call him 'Lord', saying, "THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, 'SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET' '? If David then calls him 'Lord', how is He his son?" Very good question! Here is the answer: Jesus was a descendant of David while he dwelt upon this earth, but He has always been and has always existed as God. He was never created by God but has always existed as part of the Godhead with His Father and the Holy Spirit. In this passage (Matthew 22:41-46), David called upon the Lord during his life, even the Lord Jesus! Now he says, 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD'.. This is God the Father in heaven saying to God the Son, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET." So God the Son ascended into heaven to assume His Lordship at God the Father's right hand until the time when Jesus will return to earth in the Second Coming of Christ. So this is how the Lord Jesus is David's Lord (whom David called upon) and also David's son, or descendant, at the same time. [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[libby]

.
Whats actually cool is Jesus is from the line of David on both his Mother and his fathers side. Way cool EHH ?
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD bgColor=#f0fff2>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]HOW COULD JESUS BE A DESCENDANT OF DAVID[/FONT]</TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2>

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bible general Archive 1[/FONT]​

</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD colSpan=5>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Because in the Jewish genealogy, the "mother side" is used to trace back the validity of citizenship and thus if a person is considered a true Jew or not. Since Mary was a true descendant of David, her son, Jesus as well as his brothers and sisters were true descendants of David.[/FONT]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD bgColor=#f0fff2>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]HOW COULD JESUS BE A DESCENDANT OF DAVID[/FONT]</TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2> </TD><TD bgColor=#f0fff2>

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bible general Archive 1[/FONT]​

</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD colSpan=5>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus, the Messiah, Deliverer, Son of God and King of Kings, was concieved by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. The fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily in Jesus while he was in every way a human being. Jesus was not fathered by any man, since no man had been with Mary (Luke 1:34). And Joseph, Mary's betrothed husband, at first struggled to accept this fact but later accepted it (Matthew 1:19-25). But Jesus had to be 'brought up' or 'brought forth' from the line of David; he Himself had to find his earthly beginnings and achieve his earthly ministry while being of the Kingly heritage of David. God's promise to David is ultimately fulfilled by Jesus as David's 'descendant' of whom it was promised in 2 Samuel 7:16, and in the line of Judah in Genesis 49:10: both fulfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ! And Luke 3:23-38 shows the 'direct line' genealogy from Mary, the vessel in which God used to deliver His only Son into this world, all the way down to David, and it even goes from David to Adam! And if you look in Matthew 1:1-17, you can see how Joseph, who was the step-father of Jesus, was also in the Kingly heritage, being a descendant of King David. So Jesus was in fact a descendant of David as well as being part of the royal heritage as promised by God. Now you ask: "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" (Matthew 22:41-46) They said to Him, "The son of David." Jesus said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call him 'Lord', saying, "THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, 'SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET' '? If David then calls him 'Lord', how is He his son?" Very good question! Here is the answer: Jesus was a descendant of David while he dwelt upon this earth, but He has always been and has always existed as God. He was never created by God but has always existed as part of the Godhead with His Father and the Holy Spirit. In this passage (Matthew 22:41-46), David called upon the Lord during his life, even the Lord Jesus! Now he says, 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD'.. This is God the Father in heaven saying to God the Son, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET." So God the Son ascended into heaven to assume His Lordship at God the Father's right hand until the time when Jesus will return to earth in the Second Coming of Christ. So this is how the Lord Jesus is David's Lord (whom David called upon) and also David's son, or descendant, at the same time. [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Am I missing something?? Jesus' genealogy is not traced to Mary in my Bible (unless I missed something) even in the chapter of Luke you cited. Can you give me the verse that names Mary?

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

Am I missing something?? Jesus' genealogy is not traced to Mary in my Bible (unless I missed something) even in the chapter of Luke you cited. Can you give me the verse that names Mary?

Jesus line is traced back from Mary in Luke 1:5 and Luke 1:36 link to both verses HERE.

Elizabeth was Mary's cousin and so they were both decendants of Aaron.

 

[Marie]

Am I missing something?? Jesus' genealogy is not traced to Mary in my Bible (unless I missed something) even in the chapter of Luke you cited. Can you give me the verse that names Mary?

Sorry I was at work and the bible was in the car Luke 3:23-37 Does not name Mary but her Dad Heli son of Matthat and goes backward from him to Adam.

 

[libby]

Marie,
My Bible says that Heli was Joseph's father, it makes no mention of Mary. What version of the Bible are you using? I'll check Bible gateway and see if I can get a genealogy of Mary's side.
JPC, I'm not expert in genealogy, but if Mary was a descendant of Aaron, how does that make her in the line of David? None of the listed ancestors of Zechariah or Elizabeth is mentioned in Jesus' line.

 

[Marie]

Marie,
My Bible says that Heli was Joseph's father, it makes no mention of Mary. What version of the Bible are you using? I'll check Bible gateway and see if I can get a genealogy of Mary's side.

I also use the John McAuthor Study Bible NKJ if you dont have one you should pick one up!
The comentary isnt man centered like the life application Bibles are!

I got that on the web, but thats what most Bible scholars embrace, See Mathew Henry Below one on the most noted.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary 3:23-38 Matthew's list of the forefathers of Jesus showed that Christ was the son of Abraham, in whom all the families of the earth are blessed, and heir to the throne of David; but Luke shows that Jesus was the Seed of the woman that should break the serpent's head, and traces the line up to Adam, beginning with Eli, or Heli, the father, not of Joseph, but of Mary. The seeming differences between the two evangelists in these lists of names have been removed by learned men. But our salvation does not depend upon our being able to solve these difficulties, nor is the Divine authority of the Gospels at all weakened by them. The list of names ends thus, Who was the son of Adam, the son of God; that is, the offspring of God by creation. Christ was both the son of Adam and the Son of God, that he might be a proper Mediator between God and the sons of Adam, and might bring the sons of Adam to be, through him, the sons of God. All flesh, as descended from the first Adam, is as grass, and withers as the flower of the field; but he who partakes of the Holy Spirit of life from the Second Adam, has that eternal happiness, which by the gospel is preached unto us.

 

[libby]

Marie,
My Bible says that Heli was Joseph's father, it makes no mention of Mary. What version of the Bible are you using? I'll check Bible gateway and see if I can get a genealogy of Mary's side.

I also use the John McAuthor Study Bible NKJ if you dont have one you should pick one up!
The comentary isnt man centered like the life application Bibles are!

I got that on the web, but thats what most Bible scholars See mathew Henry Below one on the most noted.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary 3:23-38 Matthew's list of the forefathers of Jesus showed that Christ was the son of Abraham, in whom all the families of the earth are blessed, and heir to the throne of David; but Luke shows that Jesus was the Seed of the woman that should break the serpent's head, and traces the line up to Adam, beginning with Eli, or Heli, the father, not of Joseph, but of Mary. The seeming differences between the two evangelists in these lists of names have been removed by learned men. But our salvation does not depend upon our being able to solve these difficulties, nor is the Divine authority of the Gospels at all weakened by them. The list of names ends thus, Who was the son of Adam, the son of God; that is, the offspring of God by creation. Christ was both the son of Adam and the Son of God, that he might be a proper Mediator between God and the sons of Adam, and might bring the sons of Adam to be, through him, the sons of God. All flesh, as descended from the first Adam, is as grass, and withers as the flower of the field; but he who partakes of the Holy Spirit of life from the Second Adam, has that eternal happiness, which by the gospel is preached unto us.

As I said at the outset, I have no problem with the seeming inconsistencies, but I think it is unwise for a Christian to be unable to explain the difficulties, hence my questions.
I don't know how to attach a website, but I'll try.
Genealogy of Jesus through Mary
I found this to be a complete explanation, see what you think.

 

[Starman3000m]

Marie,
My Bible says that Heli was Joseph's father, it makes no mention of Mary. What version of the Bible are you using? I'll check Bible gateway and see if I can get a genealogy of Mary's side.
JPC, I'm not expert in genealogy, but if Mary was a descendant of Aaron, how does that make her in the line of David? None of the listed ancestors of Zechariah or Elizabeth is mentioned in Jesus' line.

Hi libby,
Marie is exactly right in stating that determining Jewish lineage is based on the genealogy from the mother's side.

However, we are discussing more than Davidic genealogy when considering the Divinity and Authority of Jesus (Yeshua HaMashiach); we need to consider the order of an High Priest of the people.

Herein is a link that explains the Priesthood line which applies to that of Jesus.
Quite interesting and also another reason why Orthodox Judaism does not consider Jesus of Nazareth to be their High Priest/Moshiach nor accept the New Covenant between God and mankind. Please take a moment to see this info at: Melchizedek

 

[Starman3000m]

libby, et all:

Herein is some more research info regarding Mary's ancestry to King David through "Nathan". Thus, Jesus birth through Mary still fulfills the Davidic qualifications - Response by Joe Price:

Your question was:

"Hello, I was wondering if you could answer a question for me about the
Virgin Mary. My question is: Who was her father? It doesn't say in the bible.
I looked in the Encyclopedia's and I didn't get anything out of that. So if
you have tim ecould you please answer this question? Thanx so much.

Answer: Of course, the first thing to remember about Mary is that following the birth of Jesus she was no longer a virgin, for her husband Joseph then "knew her" (Matt. 1:25). Jesus was her "firstborn" son, implying that she had other sons (Matt. 1:25). Which, in fact, she did (Matt. 13:55).

The genealogy of Jesus in Matthew 1:1-17 established his legal lineage and
right to the throne of David. It is Joseph's ancestry which constituted
this Jewish requirement.

The genealogy of Jesus which is found in Luke 3:23-38 is the physical linage
of Jesus - the ancestry of Mary. (Read Luke 3:23 carefully: Jesus was
assumed to be the son of Joseph, but he was really the "son of Heli,..."
Therefore, Heli was Mary's father.

Please note that these two lineages meet in King David: the legal descent
of Jesus coming through King Solomon, David's son (Matt. 1:6-7), while the
physical lineage of Christ came through Nathan, another son of David (Lk.
3:31).

I hope this is of help to you. Again, thank you for your Bible question,
and God bless you as your study His word."

Sincerely,
Joe Price

Who was the Virgin Mary's father?

 

[libby]

libby, et all:

Herein is some more research info regarding Mary's ancestry to King David through "Nathan". Thus, Jesus birth through Mary still fulfills the Davidic qualifications - Response by Joe Price:

Your question was:

"Hello, I was wondering if you could answer a question for me about the
Virgin Mary. My question is: Who was her father? It doesn't say in the bible.
I looked in the Encyclopedia's and I didn't get anything out of that. So if
you have tim ecould you please answer this question? Thanx so much.

Answer: Of course, the first thing to remember about Mary is that following the birth of Jesus she was no longer a virgin, for her husband Joseph then "knew her" (Matt. 1:25). Jesus was her "firstborn" son, implying that she had other sons (Matt. 1:25). Which, in fact, she did (Matt. 13:55).

The genealogy of Jesus in Matthew 1:1-17 established his legal lineage and
right to the throne of David. It is Joseph's ancestry which constituted
this Jewish requirement.

The genealogy of Jesus which is found in Luke 3:23-38 is the physical linage
of Jesus - the ancestry of Mary. (Read Luke 3:23 carefully: Jesus was
assumed to be the son of Joseph, but he was really the "son of Heli,..."
Therefore, Heli was Mary's father.

Please note that these two lineages meet in King David: the legal descent
of Jesus coming through King Solomon, David's son (Matt. 1:6-7), while the
physical lineage of Christ came through Nathan, another son of David (Lk.
3:31).

I hope this is of help to you. Again, thank you for your Bible question,
and God bless you as your study His word."

Sincerely,
Joe Price

Who was the Virgin Mary's father?

Uh, Starman, I'm not sure where you got this question, but it is not mine. I never asked who is the father of the Blessed Virgin. My question is primarily one of reconciling seeming "inconsistencies" for the sake of defense. I do not subscribe to the "Bible alone" theology, and I happily accept the traditions/explanations of the Catholic Church, however, I was recently approached by Jehovah's Witnesses and their theology is the catalyst for my questions.
From Scripture, how do we make it clear that Jesus was a "son of David" according to the flesh as stated in Rom 1:3? The genealogy of Joseph establishes Christ's ancestry legally, but not "according to the flesh". It's a leap to say Luke is referring to Mary's lineage. I do not see a clear connection, so therefore no defense from the Bible. (Hmm...that latter clause sounds argumentative, but it's not meant to be. I thoroughly love God's word.)

 

[ItalianScallion]

Hi Libby. Something to think about is that the title "Son of David" is a Jewish reference to the coming Messiah (Matthew 22 v 42). It doesn't infer that Jesus is a biological offspring of David. Luke 3 v 23 says that Jesus was the son, SO IT WAS THOUGHT, of Joseph, implying that Joseph wasn't the biological father but that Mary was the biological mother.
As far as Mary's geneology is concerned, it wasn't "common place" to trace a geneology through the wife's side of a family back then. (Notice that both Matthew & Luke trace the "sons or fathers" in their geneology). There is a mention of 4 mother's in Matthew's geneology but Joseph is mentioned in Matthew 1 v 16 as the husband of Mary.

 

[Starman3000m]

Uh, Starman, I'm not sure where you got this question, but it is not mine. I never asked who is the father of the Blessed Virgin. My question is primarily one of reconciling seeming "inconsistencies" for the sake of defense. I do not subscribe to the "Bible alone" theology, and I happily accept the traditions/explanations of the Catholic Church, however, I was recently approached by Jehovah's Witnesses and their theology is the catalyst for my questions.
From Scripture, how do we make it clear that Jesus was a "son of David" according to the flesh as stated in Rom 1:3? The genealogy of Joseph establishes Christ's ancestry legally, but not "according to the flesh". It's a leap to say Luke is referring to Mary's lineage. I do not see a clear connection, so therefore no defense from the Bible. (Hmm...that latter clause sounds argumentative, but it's not meant to be. I thoroughly love God's word.)

Hi libby,
Yes, I know that the reply to the question was not responding to your "original" one but the link provided a question from someone else with the similar curiosity as what you and others have asked - in different ways of course.

Following, is an excerpt with more info about Jewish lineage through the mother that you may wish to access in your research. Once again, if Mary's lineage can be traced to a Davidic descendancy (and it does through Nathan) then Jesus still qualifies in both the blood line for a royal priesthood and as Moshiach after the order of Melchizedek. While being of Jewish blood lineage is determined by the Mother's side, the Jewish "priesthood" is the one that is traced through the father's lineage - as there are varying levels of priesthoods from among the 12 Tribes of Israel.

But first: Did you know that the Orthodox Jews await two (2) Messiahs?
1: Moshiach ben Yosef (son of Joseph) who will appear and be killed, then,
2: Moshiach ben David (son of David) who will be the final Moshiach that will establish the Kingdom of God upon this earth.

Does the phrase: "I am the First and I am the Last" ring a bell?

OK - here's the excerpt with the link for your research.

"The original and current Jewish definition of a born Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish. Even though the Torah forbids a Jewish woman to marry a Gentile man, if she does, her children will still be Jewish.

The Torah also forbids a Jewish man to marry a Gentile woman, and if he does, his children by that woman will not be Jewish.

This annoys a great many people who wish to consider themselves Jewish, despite their non-Jewish mother. It is not my intention to annoy anyone. It is my intention to explain Judaism, and not to rationalize any dilution or changes in Jewish Law."
Who is a Jew, according to the Torah?

 

[libby]

Hi libby,
Yes, I know that the reply to the question was not responding to your "original" one but the link provided a question from someone else with the similar curiosity as what you and others have asked - in different ways of course.

Following, is an excerpt with more info about Jewish lineage through the mother that you may wish to access in your research. Once again, if Mary's lineage can be traced to a Davidic descendancy (and it does through Nathan) then Jesus still qualifies in both the blood line for a royal priesthood and as Moshiach after the order of Melchizedek. While being of Jewish blood lineage is determined by the Mother's side, the Jewish "priesthood" is the one that is traced through the father's lineage - as there are varying levels of priesthoods from among the 12 Tribes of Israel.

But first: Did you know that the Orthodox Jews await two (2) Messiahs?
1: Moshiach ben Yosef (son of Joseph) who will appear and be killed, then,
2: Moshiach ben David (son of David) who will be the final Moshiach that will establish the Kingdom of God upon this earth.

Does the phrase: "I am the First and I am the Last" ring a bell?

OK - here's the excerpt with the link for your research.

"The original and current Jewish definition of a born Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish. Even though the Torah forbids a Jewish woman to marry a Gentile man, if she does, her children will still be Jewish.

The Torah also forbids a Jewish man to marry a Gentile woman, and if he does, his children by that woman will not be Jewish.

This annoys a great many people who wish to consider themselves Jewish, despite their non-Jewish mother. It is not my intention to annoy anyone. It is my intention to explain Judaism, and not to rationalize any dilution or changes in Jewish Law."
Who is a Jew, according to the Torah?

Hey Starman,
I had heard that a persons "Jewishness" was from the mother, but I had nothing to back it up. For all I knew it was just a rumor. Thanks for the link.
No, I did not know that the Jews await two Messiahs. How is it that they think a second Messiah (does Messiah mean Savior?) is needed if one has come? You said the first Messiah is to appears to be killed, so what does that mean and how does Jesus not fulfill this?
More later, hubby coming in.