Judgment day looms for Saddam

Larry Gude

Strung Out
We're going in circles...

PsyOps said:
This is absolutely true. Point is what? Do you think this was not going in all across liberated Europe (especially Germany) post-WWII? Another element you may have forgotten that contributes to the chaos in Iraq is just before Saddam realized he was going to lose the war he released thousands of prisoners. These prisoners were told that it was Saddam that is freeing them. Most of these prisoners were hardened criminals and are probably behind much of the violence in Iraq today.


Point is the same one as before. You are intimating that the level of violence and chaos in Iraq today is analogous to post WWII Europe. I'm not agreeing.

Who cares about releasing prisoners? You think this didn't happen in Europe as well?

The point is still the same; maintaining a monopoly on the use of force until you can that power over to something capable of taking it. Europe, Germany, Italy, were subdued flower gardens, uniformly interested in moving on with life compared to Iraq today.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I have no idea...

PsyOps said:
You don’t believe, for the majority of Iraqis, there will be a big collective sigh of relief when/if Saddam is executed? Is it too impossible for you to believe that it may be that event that Iraqis have been waiting for to get that sense of freedom to take their country back; that, by Saddam’s very existence, Iraqis still live in a fear that prevents them from acting on this freedom that they have been given? I could be wrong about this, but I remain optimistic that Iraqis want this freedom and one less element (a huge element) in their belief that their freedom is threatened brings them that much closer to what they have desired all their lives.

...but I hope you are right with every fiber of my being. I do not think W an idiot. Nor Rummy nor the 'neo'cons'. I believe in the same vision for Iraq and the entire region as they, and you, do. When W told the enemy 'bring it on' I said to myself "we're good to go', kill and break until they've had their fill THEN peace, good peace, has a chance.

Fingers crossed.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
My fear is...

PsyOps said:
It’s my belief (and I mentioned this before) Saddam will never survive. If he stays in Iraq he will be killed; otherwise he will go into exile (in Syria), in which case he will probably be killed.


I suppose you’re right about this, but again, I don’t think he stands to survive if acquitted and released.


...he's aquited, for all the world to see, moves to Fallujah or Tikrit and, slowly, moves back into Iraqu life.


Marion Barry ring any bells? It's just a comparison, an example of the unthinkable.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Larry Gude said:
...perhaps.

Just for comparison, Hitler wasn't exactly out of business in August 1944 and I'd think a man who dominated most of Europe for 5 years offered a good bit more to fear than a guy whose own capital had just been taken in 3 weeks.
You're kidding right? You're making this sort of comparison of someone that was in power for 5 years to someone that was in power for over 30? Hitler's reign of terror was so shortlived that he hadn't had an opportunity to propagate his ideology to such a widespread audience as Europe. Given that, it was relatively easy for Europeans to reject Nazism and accept their liberators. Saddam was able to rule a country 1/8th the size of Europe, slowly and methodically terrorizing his people with his brutal ideology, for 30 years. This is 30 years of fear instilled in a people that, during the Saddam regime fall, didn't know their fate and the whereabouts of Saddam.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
This will have to be yet another...

PsyOps said:
You're kidding right? You're making this sort of comparison of someone that was in power for 5 years to someone that was in power for over 30? Hitler's reign of terror was so shortlived that he hadn't had an opportunity to propagate his ideology to such a widespread audience as Europe. Given that, it was relatively easy for Europeans to reject Nazism and accept their liberators. Saddam was able to rule a country 1/8th the size of Europe, slowly and methodically terrorizing his people with his brutal ideology, for 30 years. This is 30 years of fear instilled in a people that, during the Saddam regime fall, didn't know their fate and the whereabouts of Saddam.

...fork in the road where we part company. Saddam, at his best, was Hitler in 1939.

I had thought that the Gestapo, the SS and the very well oiled propaganda machine were self evident success' of evil and fear.

I will argue that our betrayl of the Iraqi people in 1992, goading them to revolution and then abandoning them to Saddam is a far larger part of the equation as to the trust and level of celebration of the Iraqi people.

Will the Americans do the job? Will they actually help us? There is where the doubt lay.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Larry Gude said:
We bet on Iraqi national unity. Those people COUNTED on us to provide order and security seeings how we felt like disbanding any possible Iraqi force capable of providing that. I'd say things were fairly orderly and safe when 75% felt brave enough to vote.

What of today?
You provide a false premise on security. The first line of order and security is the desire for the people themselves to fight for it. I look at it like a boxing match. The referee can only split the boxers up at the bell if the boxers are willing to split. I realize fear dominates their lack of desire to act, but that is the root of my point... They have lived in this fear for so long that they don't know how to fight back. These terrorists and insurgents are living right among the citizenry. The people know who and where they are. If they could only get the courage to fight back this problem would solve itself. The Iraqis can’t just sit back and demand security while doing nothing for themselves. They MUST be part of the solution. THAT is our biggest failure, is providing that clear message to Iraqis.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Larry Gude said:
My fear is he's aquited, for all the world to see, moves to Fallujah or Tikrit and, slowly, moves back into Iraqu life.


Marion Barry ring any bells? It's just a comparison, an example of the unthinkable.
There lies the difference between you and me. You fear. I believe. I like to keep an optimistic view. We have proven in modern history that we have been right. Certainly not perfect, but in our pursuit to global justice and the cause of democracy and freedom... we have been right. Could Iraq be another VN, yes. But until we actually leave that country with the chaos in place I will believe we will prevail.

Saddam is just a thorn in the side of the problem. If he is acquitted (which I don't believe he will be) and somehow ends up back out there vying for power, we will go after him again. The next time he will not survive.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Larry Gude said:
...fork in the road where we part company.
Where we don't part company is we want the same end for Iraq. We even want to see the US use their "monopoly of force". I just realize that, just as with the post-WWII situation, current Iraq has become a politically and socially sensitive situation that, for some reason, wont allow us to assert our "monopoly of force". Not to mention the negative sentiments of Americans regarding the war as a result of the negative campaign launched by the mainstream media.

Where we also seem to disagree is how bad things actually are in Iraq. I refuse to succumb to the media frenzy of "Chaos in Iraq". The media refuses to report the vast amount of good things happening in Iraq. If Americans could see this I believe it would be much easier to justify using stronger force to subdue the violence because their would be more support for the overall effort.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
So Johnny...

PsyOps said:
You provide a false premise on security. The first line of order and security is the desire for the people themselves to fight for it. I look at it like a boxing match. The referee can only split the boxers up at the bell if the boxers are willing to split. I realize fear dominates their lack of desire to act, but that is the root of my point... They have lived in this fear for so long that they don't know how to fight back. These terrorists and insurgents are living right among the citizenry. The people know who and where they are. If they could only get the courage to fight back this problem would solve itself. The Iraqis can’t just sit back and demand security while doing nothing for themselves. They MUST be part of the solution. THAT is our biggest failure, is providing that clear message to Iraqis.


...what do we have for our winner!?

I provide an accurate PRErequisite, a monopoly on the use of power to have a boxing match, and you provide an accurate assessment of the problem in Iraq; What do they desire?

Two boxers can NOT come to grips absent a ring with sturdy ropes, absent an impartial referee and judges, absent a mat that is not coved in trap doors and absent lights that stay on.

Do they want what we thought they want, NFL Sunday ticket, beer, pretzels and a Corvette, not necessarily a new one?

Do they want someone to show them, kinda force them to break old habits and ways? Show 'em the ropes, so to speak?

Do they want us to not go away mad, just go away?

Do the Shia's actually wanna be like Iran?

Do the Sunni's wanna be like Saudi or Syria?

There it is, in a nutshell; what do THEY actually want? What are the willing to fight for? Bleed for? Die for?
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
May I say...

PsyOps said:
There lies the difference between you and me. You fear. I believe. I like to keep an optimistic view. We have proven in modern history that we have been right. Certainly not perfect, but in our pursuit to global justice and the cause of democracy and freedom... we have been right. Could Iraq be another VN, yes. But until we actually leave that country with the chaos in place I will believe we will prevail.

Saddam is just a thorn in the side of the problem. If he is acquitted (which I don't believe he will be) and somehow ends up back out there vying for power, we will go after him again. The next time he will not survive.


...that fear is an integral part of rational thought? What MIGHT go wrong? What MIGHT become a problem? What might we do about it? And just exactly what are we right about?

One thing; Our own country and the ones, South Korea, West Germany and Japan, where we imposed our will.

And would you please reconcile 'we will prevail' with your statement about the boxers and the willingness to fight. Whom needs to prevail?

For the record, I have references that I am often an absurd optimist. The glass isn't half full; it's all the way FULL. The rest is just spare room for the next good things when they inevitably comes along.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Larry Gude said:
Do they want what we thought they want, NFL Sunday ticket, beer, pretzels and a Corvette, not necessarily a new one?

Do they want someone to show them, kinda force them to break old habits and ways? Show 'em the ropes, so to speak?

There it is, in a nutshell; what do THEY actually want? What are the willing to fight for? Bleed for? Die for?
In another thread I pointed out how Iraqis are showing a desire for things western. They have a show that mirrors our American Idol. They love their cell phones and text messaging. From this aspect I believe they are slowly breaking their old habits and ways. I think once NFL, beer, pretzels and American cars are fully introduced into their culture they will love it and buy it up. Well maybe not the NFL.
 
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Mikeinsmd

New Member
Larry Gude said:
...what do we have for our winner!?
There it is, in a nutshell; what do THEY actually want? What are the willing to fight for? Bleed for? Die for?
They like Bingo. :shrug:
 
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