Karma.....

[itsjenn2002]

okay... where to begin... well betty you asked for my help so i am going to help out as much as i can.
since i was a little girl i have had premonitions about different things, messages so to speak. (steph , you know) any way, i doubt that it has anything to do with an overactive imagination. when i see my deceased uncle standing in my living room, or i am writing words on paper from my great grandmother i seriously doubt its my imagination. so to answer your question, betty, yes i believe in the after life. i whole heartedly believe that what you do in this lfe, may it be good or bad, reflects on your nex life. i have always believed that. i have read books and done research so i am not just going at this blindly. everyone has a right to their own beliefs.
i have also been able to readings for quite some time and i have helped a lot of people with certain aspects of their lives and the lives they will continue on to. so i guess my answer is yes to all of your questions betty

 

[Betty_Elms]

Originally posted by itsjenn2002

since i was a little girl i have had premonitions about different things, messages so to speak. (steph , you know) any way, i doubt that it has anything to do with an overactive imagination

I know right? Most people don't believe in...or should I say CAN"T believe in such things...but who's to truly say they don't exist? Think about where technology was 50 years ago...10 years ago for that matter! The realm of human thought and spirituality is the same thing. Maybe we are coming upon an era that will be different from anything humans would have ever expected.Most people have been conditioned since birth to believe or not believe in certain things...especially things that come with a certain stigma. I personally believe (you know this Jenn, lol) that some people are born "see-ers" that have a certain twinkle in their phyche. Most think they are freaks, swimdlers, or just stupid. But who knows..anything's possible...

 

[Penn]

Prophesy Foretold

Originally posted by BudoPo

Jesus did not fulfill the prophesies in the Old Testament. Moreover, the idea that the messiah would be divine or supernatural in any way is extremely contrary to Judaism, as is the idea of him dying for our sins. The prophecies in the Old Testament talk about someone who will bring peace to the world and be accepted by all nations as king (contrary to your post that he would not be accepted). :

Sorry, it's just me getting off on a point I still have difficulty with, I was keying off the last question dealing with dying and going to Heaven. If you read Isaiah 53:2-8, I believe that pretty much spells out the coming of the Son of Man, that "He will be dispised and rejected of men", tells of rejection of "His own"; that He "would be bruised for our inequities". Since Jesus was teaching and ministering all around the river Jordan, the Sea of Galilee, etc. That is the area around Israel. So, if he was ministering in Israel, who else but his own would have rejected him? Surely the priests from the Sanhedrens,
Pharisees and Sadducees were all Jewish, and we know from the New Testament that they rejected Him as well. That's what I
was getting at in my other post.

penn

 

[BudoPo]

penncam, Isaiah 53 is actually in the past tense, not the future tense. I don't know if Christian bibles changed it in order to lend credence to Jesus, or from an honest mistranslation. In any event, that part of Isaiah refers to the nation of Israel (the Jewish people, not the modern state established in 1948), not to an individual person.

The only passages considered by Jews to be messianic are:
Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14

Aside from that, as I said in my last post, the way Christianity views Jesus are contrary to fundamental Jewish beliefs.

You seem to be trying to convince me to accept Jesus. Please stop. Jews have enough problems without that sort of "help".

 

[Penn]

Originally posted by BudoPo
penncam, Isaiah 53 is actually in the past tense, not the future tense. I don't know if Christian bibles changed it in order to lend credence to Jesus, or from an honest mistranslation. In any event, that part of Isaiah refers to the nation of Israel (the Jewish people, not the modern state established in 1948), not to an individual person.

The only passages considered by Jews to be messianic are:
Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14

Aside from that, as I said in my last post, the way Christianity views Jesus are contrary to fundamental Jewish beliefs.

You seem to be trying to convince me to accept Jesus. Please stop. Jews have enough problems without that sort of "help".

Nah, I won't do that to you, Budo. I'm fairly sure I said to you in an earlier post - maybe 5 months ago, that you had your religious beliefs and how/where you chose to exercise them was your business. I was just curious how you looked at those prophesies, and if y'all thought there was any more meaning to them than what you'd experienced before. I honestly don't know/haven't read that much about Karma or Reincarnation to make a judgement.
BTW, in my King James Version, in Isa 53:3, it says that "He is despised and rejected; a man of sorrows, and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not". Then it goes on to say in verse 5, "He was wounded for our transgressions". So,
I don't know why they would use both present and past tenses in the same passage. Our Pastors do portray that passage as one of the prophesies of the coming of the Messiah. Funny, though, now that I think about it; There is a Hymn (in our Hymnal), titled "A Man of Sorrows", refering to Jesus, interesting.
Don't get bent over, I was only wondering how you viewed that, now I know. You have yours, and I have mine; no offense meant to you.
penn

 

[BudoPo]

'k, no harm done. It's always kind of tough comparing religions (or political views) without sounding like you're either insulting the other guy, or trying to convert them.

I'll post tonight what that Isaiah passage is in my version of the bible (English translation). Not being a biblical scholar, I don't have it memorized.

 

[MDindef]

Hey BudoPo, why does Isaiah 53 say "surely he bore our iniquities" if it was talking about an entire nation? Is the nation of Israel being represented by the word "he" in this case?

Even a devout Jew would have to concede that this passage bears a striking resemblance to the New Testament account of Jesus' life and crucifixion. Is this taken as a coincidence or do you think Christians read to much into it?

v/r,

 

[pixiegirl]

Back to topic. Karma. I heard/saw/read (obviosly i can't remember) something once that talked about rencarnation something to the effect that your "spiritual" life not your physical life is somewhat like evolution. You start out with your first physical life, you are not good or whole. You face hardships and makes bad choices, etc, etc, etc. You're basically not a good person. When you doe your rencarnated and given another chance to do something better; be something better. I don't know if I'm amking sense at all. Essentially you will keep repeating this process, keep evolving into something better until you have reached complete goodness. Wherever I heard it it sounded a lot better then I can explain it here. I do however believe it has some relevance. Just look at people; some people are awful; they have no morals, no values, the only thing that seperates them from animals are they're stupider. Then you have your average every day people with decent morals who try to be good people. Then you have your Gahndi (sp?) and Mother Teresas of the world. On the emotional/spiritual evolution chain some are no doubt more evolved then others.

As far as children being born w/ disabilities and such I've never really thought about it as a payback for a past wrong but it makes a good point. If you've done something/hurt someone in a past life you come back in your next life with a disability or something to be put on the "other side of the fence" so to speak. Maybe to learn and grow. It sure fits in with the evolution theory.

I like many others here whole heartedly believe in God. I've seen and been through too much weird, unexplainable $hit not to. I however don't believe in "church." One of my all time favorite movies was Stigmata.

 

[Kizzy]

I don’t believe that a disability in any way shape or form is a punishment to that person for some past doing. People with disabilities are encouraging to me and to see them overcome obstacles everyday in life only makes me think how special they are. Maybe God put those with disabilities on the earth for those of us without disabilities to learn from and to gain insight by their willingness to overcome and conquer their set back.

 

[BudoPo]

Originally posted by MDindef
Hey BudoPo, why does Isaiah 53 say "surely he bore our iniquities" if it was talking about an entire nation? Is the nation of Israel being represented by the word "he" in this case?

Even a devout Jew would have to concede that this passage bears a striking resemblance to the New Testament account of Jesus' life and crucifixion. Is this taken as a coincidence or do you think Christians read to much into it?

The messiah will bear (and die for) our sins? News to me. Also, Jesus was crucified for what he did, not for what others did (or is my history all wrong?).

Anyway, back to karma. I've heard of that belief that diabilities are a "punishment" (for lack of a better word) for previous life transgressions. It kind of follows from karmic belief, but I don't know if I subscribe to it. It would give the person an opportunity to grow as he/she worked to overcome it (and be an inspiration to others, as IM4Change suggests).

I once head about an interview with one of the Beatles (I forget where I heard it). It was about karma, and the interviewer asked if this Beatle (I don't know which one) thought they led very good lives previously, and are being rewarded with all that money. The Beatle responded by saying he thought it was a punishment, because having everything handed to you like that makes it that much harder to achieve enlightenment.

 

[Penn]

Originally posted by BudoPo
The messiah will bear (and die for) our sins? News to me. Also, Jesus was crucified for what he did, not for what others did (or is my history all wrong?).

I once head about an interview with one of the Beatles (I forget where I heard it). It was about karma, and the interviewer asked if this Beatle (I don't know which one) thought they led very good lives previously, and are being rewarded with all that money. The Beatle responded by saying he thought it was a punishment, because having everything handed to you like that makes it that much harder to achieve enlightenment.

Hey, welcome back! On your first reply above, that's what us Christians believe, that He died for our sins. He offered up a new Covenant which made sacrifices to an alter, ie., grain, goats or fowl no longer necessary. He was the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind.
And yes, He died on the Cross; for all of us, as I stated. Also, on the readings in the Old Testament you listed, I haven't got through but half of them, but they seem to focus on the "End Times", that He's coming back after the Rapture, coming to Jerusalem, where He will make Israel mighty and proud again. Revelations , in the New Testament describes that, with a large part of it coming from prophesey in the books of Daniel and Jeremiah, where in the end, after much suffering on Earth, He overcomes Satan, and all his legions.
The Beatle would probably have been either John Lennon,
or George Harrison, they were the two most "into" the Middle Eastern Enlightenment trip they were on; right around the time they published their Yellow Submarine album. If anything, it sounds to me like something Lennon might say. I think he was also into existentialism, kind of a middle ground between traditional materialism and Idealism, trying to make decisions in the face of a world without any purpose. If you listen to the words in the song "Imagine", some of that seems to have crept into his thinking.

penn

 

[itsjenn2002]

are you sure it wasnt just the drugs?
any ways, i believe that all religions are based on just about the same thing. but you can sit here and argue until your face turns blue. what one person believes is probably not going to be the same as the next. i have read numerous books on reincarnation and the concept of lifes lessons as you have all spoke about. basically i think it just comes down to what you feel in your heart of hearts. i believe heaven is what you make of it and hell is too. i believe in god to the fullest extent, but i also dont believe you should have to go to church just to prove it. all that does is prove it to everyone else. and to me religion is a very personal thing. its your choice who knows and who doesnt.

 

[itsjenn2002]

the drugs thing was a joke. i dont want to offend. if i did i am truly sorry.

 

[BudoPo]

itsjenn, that's pretty much exactly how I feel. BTW, I studied Buddhism and went to a few seminars/workshops on it. I found it very interesting. I never went whole hog into it, but I follow its basic principles (and I have some Buddhist nick nacks in my apartment). I'm not sure what the Buddhist view is on reincarnation, but I think most, if not all, sects believe in it.

penncam, yeah, it was probably Lennon or George Harrison. They were the most philosophical. BTW, I decided not to post my bible's version of Isaiah 53 last night afterall, since it was longer than I cared to type (also a cat was sleeping in my lap, making typing tough). After I posted, I realized that it's pretty easy to read Isaiah 53 and some other passages as referring to the Christian sense of the messiah. The Jewish sense of him is rather different. I don't know if he is coming at the end of days or not (I think there are differing views in the Jewish community), but just to make a point, the Rapture you refer to is Christian, not Jewish (see how tough it is to weed things out and separate different beliefs?).

 

[Penn]

Yes, I'm with ya

Originally posted by BudoPo

BTW, after I posted, I realized that it's pretty easy to read Isaiah 53 and some other passages as referring to the Christian sense of the messiah. The Jewish sense of him is rather different. I don't know if he is coming at the end of days or not (I think there are differing views in the Jewish community), but just to make a point, the Rapture you refer to is Christian, not Jewish (see how tough it is to weed things out and separate different beliefs?).

Ahh, that the Rapture is a Christian belief, that part I didn't know. When you speak of "differing views", are you refering to Messianic, Non-Messianic, or Orthodox views? If I'm correct, I think we have a Non-Messianic fella that attends our church Adult Suday School class regularly. Gives us pretty good insight vis-a-vis Judaic and Christian beliefs. I'm going to go out on a limb and say I think it's his view that Christ is, in fact coming back to Jerusalem in the "End Times". BTW, weeding things out between religious beliefs is what makes it interesting, don't ya think? As long as we don't get into a pi**ing contest over it.

penn

 

[Penn]

Originally posted by itsjenn2002
the drugs thing was a joke. i dont want to offend. if i did i am truly sorry.

Not really, itsjen2002, they were doing LSD and bunches of pot, if I remember right. I think for a while there, Beatles music
reflected that. "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", for one, "I am the Walrus" is another one. Enlightenment and exploration seemed to be their buzzwords. It was interesting to watch the evolvement, the mutations of their music styles during those times.

penn

 

[BudoPo]

Re: Yes, I'm with ya

Originally posted by penncam
Ahh, that the Rapture is a Christian belief, that part I didn't know. When you speak of "differing views", are you refering to Messianic, Non-Messianic, or Orthodox views? If I'm correct, I think we have a Non-Messianic fella that attends our church Adult Suday School class regularly. Gives us pretty good insight vis-a-vis Judaic and Christian beliefs. I'm going to go out on a limb and say I think it's his view that Christ is, in fact coming back to Jerusalem in the "End Times". BTW, weeding things out between religious beliefs is what makes it interesting, don't ya think? As long as we don't get into a pi**ing contest over it.

penn

By "differing views", I mean between Christianity and Judaism. There are many different views about this and that within Judaism (such as reincarnation and karma), and some basic common views. There's actually lots of room for personal interpretation (kind of lends credence to the old joke that if you have 2 Jews arguing, you get 3 opinions).

If by "Messianic", you're referring to Messianic Jews, then that's really a contradiction in terms. By accepting Jesus in the way that Christians do, then you really can't call yourself Jewish. There are irreconsilable differences. Heck, the standard joke is that Reform Judaism doesn't really count (of course, some Orthodox Jews feel that way about conservative Judaism, which is how I was raised).

I agree that weeding out the differences is what makes it interesting. You just have to be careful not to insult each other's belief. And it kind of makes you look into your (and other) beliefs. This happened to me when I moved here and people started asking me questions about Judaism.

 

[MDindef]

This has been an interesting post. It is important that these discussions go on with the utmost of respect for people's differing viewpoints. There are many cases though, where the belief is exclusive in nature.

For instance:

Jews: the chosen people
Christians: We believe that Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Islam: Believe that "there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.

An interesting exception to the rule given by the Mormons. They consider devout Jews and Christians to be simply "misguided brothers," but we're still okay as far as the afterlife goes.

 

[Penn]

Originally posted by BudoPo

I don't know if he is coming at the end of days or not (I think there are differing views in the Jewish community).

Budo, this is what I was refering to in the post. It didn't seem to me that you were comparing Judaic views with Christian views when you used this type of language. I really thought you meant views inside the Judaic/Jewish community
by itself; and that's where I supposed you were talking about the different religious sects inside Judaism.
Double Wow! Learn something new everyday! No where in my studies have I picked up on the idea that Jews might embrace reincarnation or karma. I had the idea that those were mainly a Buddist, maybe even an Oriental thinking.
I don't know if I can embrace karma or reincarnation, but what does hold my fascination is the idea of Angels coming back from Heaven to help mankind, or the idea that these individuals have not qualified to stay in the Heaven, gotta "fully earn" their wings. What was that movie Paul Hogan starred in a few years back? "Almost an Angel"? How about the one Jimmy Stewart was in, "Miracle on Thirty-fourth Street"? If we're talking about "coming back", this certainly qualifies!

penn

 

[Penn]

Well, I'll buy two out of three. . . . .

Originally posted by MDindef

For instance:

Jews: the chosen people
Christians: We believe that Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Islam: Believe that "there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.

An interesting exception to the rule given by the Mormons. They consider devout Jews and Christians to be simply "misguided brothers," but we're still okay as far as the afterlife goes.

The Old Testament, whether it's a Judaic interpretation or a Christian version, I would think leaves little doubt that the nation of Israel and the Jews were(and still are; what's happened to change that thinking?) the chosen nation and people.
Of course, I believe in the Christian point of view: "I am the Way, the truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father, but by Me". If you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that is as easy as "two plus two".
The third maxim is not a view I suscribe to. But hey, everyone has an opinion, right or wrong.
Mormons: Hmm? Do they or don't they still ascribe to marrying more than one wife? I'll leave it at that.

penn