Law Enforcement officers Bill of Rights.

tblwdc

New Member
I was reading an article in the Maryland Reporter this weekend and found another outcome of the Freddy Gray case.

http://marylandreporter.com/2015/05/05/legislature-will-take-another-look-at-states-policing-laws/

Do you think there should be changes and why?

I think it depends on what they want changed? Last year, they were attacking the 10 day rule. This is a rule where a police office can be compelled to give a statement, but not for 10 days so that they have time to obtain legal counsel. I think it's ludicrous to suggest a police officer should be compelled to give a statement without counsel.
 

Freefaller

Active Member
I was reading an article in the Maryland Reporter this weekend and found another outcome of the Freddy Gray case.

http://marylandreporter.com/2015/05/05/legislature-will-take-another-look-at-states-policing-laws/

Do you think there should be changes and why?

Quite Frankly, I am offended by this article. It makes so many incorrect assumptions it isn't even funny, let alone accurate. In my humble opinion, these assumptions make the article useless.

I suggest all Police Officers in Baltimore look for employment in other jurisdictions, leave Baltimore to the thugs. See how the mayor and prosecutor handle that!
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
I think it depends on what they want changed? Last year, they were attacking the 10 day rule. This is a rule where a police office can be compelled to give a statement, but not for 10 days so that they have time to obtain legal counsel. I think it's ludicrous to suggest a police officer should be compelled to give a statement without counsel.

SBW Law Firm is the firm for Baltimore City FOP Lodge 3 (among other Lodges across MD).
http://www.sbwlaw.com/

Our Maryland accident lawyers are accessible 24/7, and many clients have their attorneys' cell phone numbers for emergencies.

Lodge 34 (MDTA Police) uses the same firm.
Below is a comprehensive line by line of our pre-paid legal plan and on-duty incident plan with Schlachman, Belsky & Weiner P.A. for you, the member, to take advantage of no matter if you are active or retired*. If you need legal advice for any issue contact SBW Law at 410-685-2022 or 1 (888) 685-2022. (Always call those numbers first for legal service) Should any member have any issues or compliments with or for the firm please utilize the Complaint/Compliment Form attached and forward to 2nd Vice President Duane Urban to be handled.

HOW THE PLAN WORKS

All services under the plan will be furnished by the law firm of Schlachman, Belsky & Weiner, P.A. at their various offices. Normal office hours are Monday through Friday - 9:00a.m. to 5:00p.m. Appointments should be made by dialing (410) 685-2022 or our State-wide toll free number 1 (888) 685-2022.

Anyone with an "emergency" at a time when the office is closed should call (410) 685-2022 or our State wide toll free number 1 (888) 685-2022 at any hour and the answering service will then page a lawyer on call from the firm and your call will be acknowledged promptly.

http://www.mdfop34.org/md-fop-lodge-34-membership-legal-services


I don't believe anyone is advocating that officers should have to give a statement without counsel, but let's be honest. They have lawyers available 24/7, and it sure as hell won't take 10 days for an officer to get a lawyer that's got an agreement with their union. On the flip side, do you think it's possible that stories could change after 10 days? Key facts of the case could change in that amount of time?

The ACLU of MD has some info on the topic regarding proposed changes.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8L8vf0joWhQMzVsNnNXOURid1E/view?pli=1
 

tblwdc

New Member
SBW Law Firm is the firm for Baltimore City FOP Lodge 3 (among other Lodges across MD).
http://www.sbwlaw.com/



Lodge 34 (MDTA Police) uses the same firm.




http://www.mdfop34.org/md-fop-lodge-34-membership-legal-services


I don't believe anyone is advocating that officers should have to give a statement without counsel, but let's be honest. They have lawyers available 24/7, and it sure as hell won't take 10 days for an officer to get a lawyer that's got an agreement with their union. On the flip side, do you think it's possible that stories could change after 10 days? Key facts of the case could change in that amount of time?

The ACLU of MD has some info on the topic regarding proposed changes.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8L8vf0joWhQMzVsNnNXOURid1E/view?pli=1

Prince Georges County, Charles County, Calvert County, Anne Arundel County and St. Mary's County all use that law firm. How long do you think an officer should have before they are compelled to give a statement?
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Prince Georges County, Charles County, Calvert County, Anne Arundel County and St. Mary's County all use that law firm. How long do you think an officer should have before they are compelled to give a statement?

Why should there be a limit? You said it yourself, he/she has the right to remain silent.

Let him/her remain silent for entirety for all I care. Drag it out. Let the public keep coming up with every hypothetical situation under the sun. Let the case go to a grand jury and make the prosecution deliver their evidence, it's their burden of proof.

If they want union representation, and that union negotiates with their employers, I won't argue that. Personally, while unions can be helpful, I believe their employers should be free to hire and fire at will. They know their officer best, and know if one is a danger to the very society they are supposed to protect.

Do you think 10 days is enough time, maybe more, maybe less? If the union were willing to give up just a little and drop it to, say, 3-5 days (knowing full-well the almost immediate legal representation available to officers) do you think everyone would be happy?
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
I read the ACLU's crap. They state the Chief of a department has limited authority to discipline an officer. That's bullsh*t. The chief can do what ever he wants to an officer if the officer is found to have violated policy or the law.

Then the union steps in and plays the "wrongful termination" card.

I've posted on this topic before, citing examples of bad officers who were able to get their jobs back thanks to their unions. I can dig them back up if you'd like.
 

tblwdc

New Member
Why should there be a limit? You said it yourself, he/she has the right to remain silent.

Let him/her remain silent for entirety for all I care. Drag it out. Let the public keep coming up with every hypothetical situation under the sun. Let the case go to a grand jury and make the prosecution deliver their evidence, it's their burden of proof.

If they want union representation, and that union negotiates with their employers, I won't argue that. Personally, while unions can be helpful, I believe their employers should be free to hire and fire at will. They know their officer best, and know if one is a danger to the very society they are supposed to protect.

Do you think 10 days is enough time, maybe more, maybe less? If the union were willing to give up just a little and drop it to, say, 3-5 days (knowing full-well the almost immediate legal representation available to officers) do you think everyone would be happy?

I think 10 days is a good standard. SBW is not located in St. Mary's and Calvert County. They don't have a union representing them.

The cop doesn't have the right to remain silent without repercussions. That's the difference. A citizen can remain silent all they want and nobody can do anything to them. A cop can't. He'll lose his job if he invokes his fifth amendment right.
 

tblwdc

New Member
Then the union steps in and plays the "wrongful termination" card.

I've posted on this topic before, citing examples of bad officers who were able to get their jobs back thanks to their unions. I can dig them back up if you'd like.

They didn't get their jobs back because of Unions, they got their jobs back because there was no due process. If a criminal was found not guilty because a cop violated the law, you'd be fine with that. You'd blame the cop. When police administrations violate cops rights, you make the assumption the cop was wrong.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
I think 10 days is a good standard. SBW is not located in St. Mary's and Calvert County. They don't have a union representing them.

The cop doesn't have the right to remain silent without repercussions. That's the difference. A citizen can remain silent all they want and nobody can do anything to them. A cop can't. He'll lose his job if he invokes his fifth amendment right.

SBW has an office in Upper Marlboro.Are you saying it takes 10 days to get from Upper Marlboro to Southern MD? they represent agencies that are farther away, like the MDTA page I linked in the last post. They specifically say to call a special number in the event of an emergency and a lawyer will be paged and contact the officer ASAP.

In this age of technology, you claim distance from their physical office is the reason for your 10 day standard?




I'd like to see an example of an officer being fired from his job by invoking his Constitutional Right to remain silent.

Here's a story where 7 officers invoked their right to remain silent.
Before Officer Michael Brelo's trial began, 16 Cleveland police officers declined to meet with prosecutors to review their testimony about the officer's shooting of Timothy Russell and Malissa Williams.

Once the case reached a courtroom, seven officers exercised their 5th Amendment rights and refused to testify about Brelo, who prosecutors say leaped onto the hood of Russell's car after a lengthy pursuit and fired 15 rounds from his pistol, killing both occupants.

Brelo was indicted in May 2014, nearly 18 months after the November 2012 shooting

Of the seven officers who refused to testify at trial, five face a lesser criminal charge, dereliction of duty, in connection with the chase, Frolik said.

The remaining two faced no charges and had no reason to fear prosecution, he said. They had described the pursuit to state investigators in earlier interviews, court records show.

During questioning in April, both officers invoked the 5th Amendment as soon as an assistant prosecutor asked them about anything related to the night of the chase.

Both times, an assistant prosecutor stated in open court that it would be impossible for the officers to incriminate themselves, but they still maintained silence.

"It's part of their constitutional right," Pillow said. "There's nothing that the division can implement or influence regarding it."

Loomis is angry that prosecutors are trying to paint the officers as part of some conspiracy.

"Let me get this straight. We're not cooperating because we're exercising our constitutional right against self-incrimination?" he asked

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-cleveland-police-20150517-story.html

They didn't get their jobs back because of Unions, they got their jobs back because there was no due process. If a criminal was found not guilty because a cop violated the law, you'd be fine with that. You'd blame the cop. When police administrations violate cops rights, you make the assumption the cop was wrong.

And this is where unions are a bad thing. How can you claim police administrators violate officer's rights after the officer is guilty of pistol whipping someone and shooting a separate innocent person on their day off?
In June 2008, after downing six drinks as part of his wife's birthday celebration on the South Side, Paul Abel was accused of accidentally shooting a 20-year-old man he was trying to pistol-whip.

In December 2009, Eugene Hlavac was accused of slapping his ex-girlfriend (and his son's mother) so hard that he dislocated her jaw.

And in November 2010, Garrett Brown was accused of running two delivery-truck drivers off the road in a fit of rage — an allegation similar to those made against Brown in at least one other late-night traffic encounter.

Each of these men, who were all Pittsburgh Police officers at the time of the incidents, shares a common experience: They all were fired, charged criminally, cleared of those charges ... and then got their jobs back through arbitration.
http://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsbu...-have-when-theyre-rehired/Content?oid=1746236

AFTER A REVIEW of more than two dozen cases of fired Philadelphia Police officers that showed the majority of them were reinstated, the Police Advisory Commission yesterday called on the city to examine the police arbitration process.

In its inquiry into 26 cases of police officers fired between 2008 and last year for offenses ranging from domestic incidents and retail theft to excessive force and on-duty intoxication, the commission found that 19 of the cops were reinstated by arbitrators, PAC executive director Kelvyn Anderson said during a news conference last night at which the commission released its 2012-13 annual report and announced its recommendation.
http://articles.philly.com/2014-11-...ommission-arbitration-process-kelvyn-anderson

A 2011 investigation into Reynolds’ frequent use of his Taser found he excessively used it on multiple people, many of whom were involved in minor, non-violent offenses, for extended periods of time — sometimes up to 30 seconds. The investigation also found he was dishonest in his police reports about the circumstances of using the Taser.

As a result, Reynolds was suspended for two weeks without pay. He returned to duty and was ordered to undergo additional training.

The 2011 suspension, however, was not Reynolds’ first warning about his behavior. By that point, Reynolds had already received multiple verbal and written warnings about other policy violations including reckless behavior, failing to show up for trial and arresting someone without probable cause.

In the police chief’s letter of reprimand to Reynolds, dated July 12, 2011, it stated: “This is truly the final opportunity for you to make some fundamental changes … Future violations of departmental policy will be dealt with in the most severe terms and may result in your dismissal from employment.”

Despite that warning, Reynolds’ attitude reportedly grew worse in 2011. According to a legal brief submitted to the arbitrator by the city defending the termination, Reynolds spent the large majority of his shift hiding out, avoiding responding to calls or interacting with his coworkers and supervisors.

In January 2012, the administration launched another internal investigation against Reynolds and found he violated eight additional policies, including insubordination, cooperation with other employees and failing to aid other officers. He then was fired.

The final investigation started after an incident on Jan. 1, 2012, in which Sgt. Carl Buster confronted Reynolds about not backing up his coworkers. Reynolds asked for his union representative and refused to answer Buster’s questions.

The union argued to the arbitrator that the investigation into the confrontation stemmed from the administration accusing Reynolds of “insubordination” by invoking his right for a union representative.

The arbitrator concurred. According to Latsch’s decision: “I must agree with the union that it appears that the Employer’s main focus ... revolved around Mr. Reynolds’ refusal to answer Sergeant Buster’s questions without union representation present. Once that matter had to be set aside because Mr. Reynolds was asserting a statutory collective bargaining right, the employer attempted to use other minor events as a sufficient basis to terminate Mr. Reynolds from employment.

“The events describe do not warrant such an extreme form of discipline, and the termination cannot stand,” he wrote.
http://www.chronline.com/article_d10f3aea-d634-11e3-bbef-0019bb2963f4.html

Are there cases where an officer is saved from excessive discipline by their superiors? No doubt. Are there cases where bad officers are allowed to keep their job or move to another jurisdiction without disclosing why they lost their last job? Yes. I do not believe that every termination and reinstatement is the result of an officer crying that his big bad boss fired him without good reason.
 
Last edited:

tblwdc

New Member
SBW has an office in Upper Marlboro.Are you saying it takes 10 days to get from Upper Marlboro to Southern MD? they represent agencies that are farther away, like the MDTA page I linked in the last post. They specifically say to call a special number in the event of an emergency and a lawyer will be paged and contact the officer ASAP.

In this age of technology, you claim distance from their physical office is the reason for your 10 day standard?

I pointed out the numerous police agencies SBW Law represents. They have one attorney to represent Calvert, Charles, St. Mary's and Prince Georges County. If a police officer gets served with a brutality complaint on Friday, that's no emergency. So that's three days before the cop event gets to talk to his attorney. I don't know how busy you are, but in my job I have my week planned out and appointments scheduled at least a week in advance. It would be very difficult for me to carve out four hours in any week for something which was not already scheduled. 10 days isn't that long when you are trying to fit in the schedules of three people.
 

tblwdc

New Member
I'd like to see an example of an officer being fired from his job by invoking his Constitutional Right to remain silent.

Here's a story where 7 officers invoked their right to remain silent.

WTF does 7 cops from Cleveland...which is in OHIO have to do with Maryland's LEOBR? Can't you stay on script?

None of your stories are about Maryland's LEOBR. This is what people like you do.

I was at the hearings last year for the changes to the LEOBR. All of the stories from the ACLU and the other people wanting change were stories about Ferguson or New York.

Even the idiot Jill Carter didn't get it right when she talked about the process.
 
Last edited:

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
I pointed out the numerous police agencies SBW Law represents. They have one attorney to represent Calvert, Charles, St. Mary's and Prince Georges County. If a police officer gets served with a brutality complaint on Friday, that's no emergency. So that's three days before the cop event gets to talk to his attorney. I don't know how busy you are, but in my job I have my week planned out and appointments scheduled at least a week in advance. It would be very difficult for me to carve out four hours in any week for something which was not already scheduled. 10 days isn't that long when you are trying to fit in the schedules of three people.

Are you saying SBW is the only legal resource available to the entire tri-county police force? LEOBR specifically says:
(j) (1) (i) On request, the law enforcement officer under interrogation has the right to be represented by counsel or another responsible representative of the law enforcement officer’s choice who shall be present and available for consultation at all times during the interrogation.

(ii) The law enforcement officer may waive the right described in subparagraph (i) of this paragraph.

(2) (i) The interrogation shall be suspended for a period not exceeding 10 days until representation is obtained

I'm arguing that the 10 day provision is meaningless. Why not revise it to state "The interrogation shall be suspended until representation is obtained"?

WTF does 7 cops from Cleveland...which is in OHIO have to do with Maryland's LEOBR? Can't you stay on script?

Because YOU claimed an officer can be fired for remaining silent (a Constitutional right). I asked for proof, and provided a story contrary to your claim.

Just a FYI, MD LEOBR specifically states:
Retaliation.- A law enforcement officer may not be discharged, disciplined, demoted, or denied promotion, transfer, or reassignment, or otherwise discriminated against in regard to the law enforcement officer's employment or be threatened with that treatment because the law enforcement officer:

(1) has exercised or demanded the rights granted by this subtitle; or

(2) has lawfully exercised constitutional rights.
http://law.justia.com/codes/maryland/2010/public-safety/title-3/subtitle-1/3-103/


None of your stories are about Maryland's LEOBR. This is what people like you do.
What stories? The ones I posted after we were discussing unions in general?

I was at the hearings last year for the changes to the LEOBR. All of the stories from the ACLU and the other people wanting change were stories about Ferguson or New York.

Even the idiot Jill Carter didn't get it right when she talked about the process.

Deb Ray, is that you?
“I left Missouri 29 years ago. I live in Maryland now,” said Del. Deborah Rey, a member of the House Judiciary Committee. Rey questioned the need for police reform bills because the sponsors cited abuses in “Ferguson, Missouri, not Maryland.”

I don't know what legislation you're talking about, but I assume it's HB365 or HB813?
http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/2015RS/bills/hb/hb0365F.pdf
http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/2015RS/bills/hb/hb0813F.pdf

Jill Carter wanted to remove the language saying that police could only investigate themselves and allow prosecutors to investigate deaths caused by law enforcement.

Since it's apparent we can't have a discussion based on your own comments, we can get back to MD's LEOBR.

You want to talk about the subject at hand, explain why these proposed changes are a bad thing for someone who claims to be just another person capable of mistakes and misfortune, but is granted "rights" civilians aren't:
1.LEOBR should allow for civilian review. The law needs to be changed to allow local governments to establish meaningful civilian review of the internal disciplinary process.
2.LEOBR should allow for effective discipline, not create barriers. Currently, discipline may not be imposed unless recommended by a hearing board. The hearing board can only be composed of sworn law enforcement officers, unless the police union agrees to a different plan.
3.LEOBR should encourage effective investigation. Currently, LEOBR prevents investigators from interrogating an officer accused or suspected of misconduct for 10 days after notifying the officer that an investigation has begun. And departments have no obligation to even investigate brutality allegations that are filed more than 90 days after the incident.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8L8vf0joWhQMzVsNnNXOURid1E/view?pli=1

Because unlike a member of the public, the officer gets a “cooling off” period before he has to respond to any questions.
Unlike a member of the public, the officer under investigation is privy to the names of his complainants and their testimony against him before he is ever interrogated.
Unlike a member of the public, the officer under investigation is to be interrogated “at a reasonable hour,” with a union member present.
Unlike a member of the public, the officer can only be questioned by one person during his interrogation.
Unlike a member of the public, the officer can be interrogated only “for reasonable periods,” which “shall be timed to allow for such personal necessities and rest periods as are reasonably necessary.”
Unlike a member of the public, the officer under investigation cannot be “threatened with disciplinary action” at any point during his interrogation. If he is threatened with punishment, whatever he says following the threat cannot be used against him.

If you, or others want to argue that police are just like you and me. That they deserve the same rights as everyone else, why does this "Bill of Rights" give police treatment they do not offer to civilian suspects they are questioning? Anyone wanting to change that, or limit these" rights" is lambasted by "people like you", or the Police Unions claiming the word is out to get them and everyone hates cops. How can you, on one hand, claim officers are getting the short end of the stick, while on the other hand, defending one of the strongest statues in the country tailored only to police officers?
 

tblwdc

New Member
1. Are you saying SBW is the only legal resource available to the entire tri-county police force? LEOBR specifically says:
2. I'm arguing that the 10 day provision is meaningless. Why not revise it to state "The interrogation shall be suspended until representation is obtained"?
3. Since it's apparent we can't have a discussion based on your own comments, we can get back to MD's LEOBR.
4. You want to talk about the subject at hand, explain why these proposed changes are a bad thing for someone who claims to be just another person capable of mistakes and misfortune, but is granted "rights" civilians aren't:
5. Because unlike a member of the public, the officer gets a “cooling off” period before he has to respond to any questions.
6. Unlike a member of the public, the officer under investigation is privy to the names of his complainants and their testimony against him before he is ever interrogated.
7. Unlike a member of the public, the officer under investigation is to be interrogated “at a reasonable hour,” with a union member present.
8. Unlike a member of the public, the officer can only be questioned by one person during his interrogation.
9. Unlike a member of the public, the officer can be interrogated only “for reasonable periods,” which “shall be timed to allow for such personal necessities and rest periods as are reasonably necessary.”
10. Unlike a member of the public, the officer under investigation cannot be “threatened with disciplinary action” at any point during his interrogation. If he is threatened with punishment, whatever he says following the threat cannot be used against him.

11. If you, or others want to argue that police are just like you and me. That they deserve the same rights as everyone else, why does this "Bill of Rights" give police treatment they do not offer to civilian suspects they are questioning? Anyone wanting to change that, or limit these" rights" is lambasted by "people like you", or the Police Unions claiming the word is out to get them and everyone hates cops. How can you, on one hand, claim officers are getting the short end of the stick, while on the other hand, defending one of the strongest statues in the country tailored only to police officers?
1. SBW law is the firm which is on retainer for the counties I mentioned. SBW law specializes in matters dealing with police, which is why LEO retain them.
2. So then it could be 20 days, thirty days. Who is then to say when it ends?
3. My comments dealt with Maryland LEOBR.
4. Tell me a right granted which a civilian isn’t?
5. A citizen NEVER has to answer questions.
6. A citizen can request that information and refuse to answer if it is not provided. An officer can be compelled to answer.
7. A citizen can dictate the time a police officer speaks with them, and have whomever they like with them while being questioned. Or…they can refuse to be questioned and not compelled to speak like a police officer can. Now, I defy you to find any part of the Maryland LEOBR which states what you just said. It’s nonsense. Calvert County doesn’t have a union. Does that mean they can never be questioned?
8. A member of the public can insist they are only questioned by one person or refuse to answer questions.
9. A citizen can stop an interrogation at any point.
10. Police officers are not allowed to threaten subjects to obtain information. Any information obtained by threat or coercion is not admissible.
11. Every point you made is afforded to the average citizen. The difference being if a citizen refuses to cooperate with law enforcement, they can not lose their job.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
If a police officer gets served with a brutality complaint on Friday, that's no emergency.
So that's three days before the cop event gets to talk to his attorney.
I don't know how busy you are, but in my job I have my week planned out and appointments scheduled at least a week in advance.
It would be very difficult for me to carve out four hours in any week for something which was not already scheduled.


No you are making excuses .... it is a Hot Line
... some Atty get stuck being 'on call' just like a Doctor, or Plumber, or Electrician .....
 
Top