Legal or Not... Your Thoughts Please

[Ken King]

That subject came up with the SRO yesterday. I told him that I had raised my kids to be respectful of law enforcement, and to always be honest with them. I told them that their friends were wrong when they say that they should never talk to the cops because the police will lie, or try to trick them into saying something. Anytime that my kids have seen something wrong going on they have had no reservations about telling a parent, school official, or police officer about it. In fact there are several deputies who my older kids know as friends who will hang out at out house playing Halo during slow patrol days, and they'll talk to my kids and their friends. I've endorsed this sort of thing as I believe nothing but good can come from my kids and their friends getting to know and trust the police, and the SRO told me that this was a big part of his job.

But then I told him that I could no longer allow my son to be open and honest with the police bssed on what happened on Tuesday, and that this detective had proved to my son that his friends were right about what they had said about the police. I told him he could forget about ever calling my son to his office to ask about anything again unless I was present, and that my son will be refusing to answer any questions to police at the school. I also told the SRO that I would be telling my son's friends to do the same. I told the SRO that I really felt bad about the need to tell kids to act this way, but that the detective's actions had caused this and that he should take the fact that his job just got a lot harder up with the leadership at CCSO.

Very similar experience for me and my kids; be forthright, be honest, cooperate. Until an incident happened in our neighborhood involving a B&E and property damage. The short of it was four boys (my son was one) walking down a street when two of the boys leave the street and go up to a house and breakout a door window, at which point my son and the lad that stayed out on the street departed the area and never went onto the property. All the lads involved later confirmed this. Son told the officer what he saw and knew and the next thing he was arrested for the B&E and property damage. SA turned it over to juvenile services and they wanted $435 for his part, total damages split 4 ways. I threw the and said "lets take this to court as I would rather spend $1000 on a lawyer proving you wrong on the matter then pay the fine when he did nothing". It was dropped for my son but the parents of the other lad that did nothing coughed up the bucks when their child did nothing also.

 

[Bruzilla]

And the plot thickens...

Well, my son did not bring home a copy of the school/CCSO agreement, but he did get a copy of the portion of a document that I saw in the VP's office yesterday. I do not know the source of this document, but in the two pages that I have read it seems like a how-to for interrogating kids at schools. There are a couple of sections that caught my eye and ire:

1. pp26, para 4: You do not have to advise a juvenile that he has a right to have a parent present during an interview. On my document this para has been highlighted in yellow by the VP.

2. pp25, para 4, subpara b. Case Law, Brancaccio Vs. State, 773 So. 2d 582 (4th DCA 2000) A juvenile who was being interviewed by law enforcement asked if his parents had been notified, police said "it had been taken care of." In fact, they had no intention of calling the parents out of fear that evidence would be destroyed. The court ruled that the subsequent confession was ok because the juvenile did not actually ask for his parents and he voluntarily confessed.

Can you believe this The DCA actually ruled that a minor asking if his parents had been notified, and being told by the cops that they had taken care of it when they in fact lied, is ok because the kid didn't "actually ask for his parents?" What kind of #### is that? I'm also very surprised to read that minors, minors, do not need to be advised that they have a right to have a parent present during questioning. Talk about being beyond the pale.

I have a call into the VP as I still want a copy of the agreement between the CCSO and the high school, as well as the title of the source documents for the materials I got today. And yes... I am definately going to the newsies with this one!

 

[Larry Gude]

Lawyers!

All of you, lawyers! Is that the world we want to live in, one of knowing AND exercising every last single right, at all times and for all reasons???

Bruz, your boy got rousted by the cops, albeit with velvet gloves. They’re job is to enforce the law once a crime has been committed, to find the perps and bust their ass.
Cops live with an endless tidal wave of bullshit thrown at them at all times and from all directions. If they don’t treat everyone as a suspect, at the very least in their mind, until such time each person on the list has passed at least a sniff test, who they gonna catch?

MY SON WOULD NEVER…

MY KID WAS ON HIS WAY TO CHOIR PRACTICE…

ANGELICA WAS FEEDING THE SICK AT THAT TIME…

So he approached junior as suspect? So he bent the intent a bit. Guess what? Your son passed with flying colors. That cop now knows your son is as clean as a whistle and is a good guy; he talked to the cops and he respected what they have to do. He’s NOT a punk. He’s not a smart ass. He’s on his way to being on the side of law enforcement as an adult.

Story time, children:

It’s 1981 and a 17 year old, name withheld to protect the guilty, is cutting class. Again. He’s got long hair. Ho looks like a pot head. He’s hanging in the woods where the pots heads are known to hang. He’s alone. He’s just wondering around, killing time.

Suddenly, 4 of PG county’s finest come crashing through the underbrush, badges help out, no weapons drawn: “Hold it right there, son! PG county’s finest here, we’re gonna check you out!” So, they go looking through my…err...this kids pockets and stuff, asking what I’m…HE is doing wandering around out here during school hours.

Mind you, they did not put this unnamed kid under arrest. I’m told they didn’t ask to search nor have a warrant. Four of them, one of he. So, our ‘victim’ says “I’m cutting class.”

They told him to go back to school and to tell whomever in office that officer so and so had stopped me.

Over 16. On public property. Hadn’t even spit on the sidewalk. Illegal search and seizure? Shoulda had a lawyer? Parental permission?

All I’m saying is that they were trying to do a job. They didn’t frame me by plopping a nickel bag in my pocket. They didn’t threaten me or make me give anyone up. They swung, they missed, no big deal, on with the game.
If cops don’t deserve and NEED a bit of leeway, who does? I think they do need that leeway.

Bruz, I don’t know your kid and I am not suggesting anything about him. The cop ALSO didn’t know your kid and would it have been so strange for some kid to know or have heard this or that and MAYBE have something to do with it?

Again, your boy passed. He dealt with some some grumpy authority figure that is stuck having to outwit teenagers and he came away knowing that this boy has good parents and is part of the solution, not part of the problem.

I say hooray for you and your wife and your son.

Legal or not, cut the cop some slack. He’s policing YOUR neighborhood.

 

[Ken King]

Legal or not, cut the cop some slack. He’s policing YOUR neighborhood.

The cop is looking to close a case that he has been assigned and he doesn't give a rat's ass if he gets the right perp or not. He’s not there to help you out if you aren’t the victim, he’s there trying to make a quick close.

If he gets a kid all befuddled during an interrogation and the kid admits to doing something, case closed he’s now got a confession that will stand up in court. Even if the kid admits to only knowing something happened and not actually doing something the kid could wind up in court because of what the cop interpreted was said or jotted down in his note pad. At that point the kid and his parents will have to prove it didn’t happen as the cop alleged.

For me the bottom line is that I and my family will not assist when it looks like the police are looking at us, you want to ask me a couple of questions, fine, but I want my lawyer sitting with me seeing if you are trying to trip me up.

For those of you with non-adult kids I recommend that you educate your children to know how to specifically ask for your presence during the questioning phase.

 

[Pete]

Very confusing, I am trying to formulate an opinion.

 

[dustin]

So he approached junior as suspect? So he bent the intent a bit. Guess what? Your son passed with flying colors. That cop now knows your son is as clean as a whistle and is a good guy; he talked to the cops and he respected what they have to do. He’s NOT a punk. He’s not a smart ass. He’s on his way to being on the side of law enforcement as an adult.

...

Again, your boy passed. He dealt with some some grumpy authority figure that is stuck having to outwit teenagers and he came away knowing that this boy has good parents and is part of the solution, not part of the problem.

I say hooray for you and your wife and your son.

Legal or not, cut the cop some slack. He’s policing YOUR neighborhood.

Should it be legal for a minor to have to go through police questioning without a parent/guardian notified ahead of time?

Should it be legal for a minor to not know wether or not his or her parents have been notified?

 

[Otter]

Legal or not, cut the cop some slack. He’s policing YOUR neighborhood.

No slack for the cop. no how, no way..If he wanted to question the minor about a crime that happened more than 24 hours previous, he should have gone thru the parents, not the school.period..end of story.

Do you think once other parents, hearing of the above, are going to have any respect for their 'neighborhood cop' afterwards?? A cops job would be 10 times easier if he had the neighborhood adults behind him, not against him. The above is a prime example of why so many people distrust the police. Save the hardball games for real perps, not minor suspects in a vandalism.

 

[mAlice]

No slack for the cop. no how, no way..If he wanted to question the minor about a crime that happened more than 24 hours previous, he should have gone thru the parents, not the school.period..end of story.

Do you think once other parents, hearing of the above, are going to have any respect for their 'neighborhood cop' afterwards?? A cops job would be 10 times easier if he had the neighborhood adults behind him, not against him. The above is a prime example of why so many people distrust the police. Save the hardball games for real perps, not minor suspects in a vandalism.

I have always been my childs advocate, as I know not all others will have her best interests at heart. In my eyes she will remain innocent until proven otherwise, at which time I would step aside.

Bruz, I'd be all over that cops ass, and the school.

 

[Bruzilla]

Larry, Thanks as always for your insights on this. Let me offer you some case history for my kids and I. I have had three kids go through MD and FL public schools, and my daughter only had one disciplinary problem in 12 years. She skipped out on a day of school because a friend of hers had said she was thinking about suicide and she decided to go to her friend's house and keep an eye on her. My wife spotted my daugher walking with her friend and called me, and I called the school and reported her being out on an unexcused abscence. While I sympathized with my daughter's decision to stay home, the fact is she took the wrong action - both in declining to inform someone who really could help of the issue as well as skipping school. The only other time that I have had a kid in trouble was when my youngest got in a fight with a kid who had been harassing him and only after we had gone to numeroud school authorities to get the issue resolved. I told him that if the kid ever pushed or hit him again he should beat the #### out of him and that I would back him up. The kid hit him, Chris beat the #### out of him, and I fought the battle with Margaret Brent MS to make sure the admin folks who didnt' want to do anything to the trouble maker were held accountable. So, I have no problem with my kids being disciplined as I was the one who insisted on punishment for my daughter and not the school. My kids have been raised to follow the rules, and if they don't they're going to get punished.

As for police just doing their jobs, Ken is 100% right. We look at the job of the police being keeping law and order and protecting us, but that's not the job - it's the outcome of the job. The job is investigating and closing cases, and any cop with a lot of open investigations and/or a low number of convictions isn't going to be a cop for long. There is a lot of pressure to close cases, especially dated ones, and this leads to some cops wanting to trim some corners. When I worked at the sheriff's office in the early 90s, there were some detectives who couldn't get a nun to admit she was wearing black, while some detectives could get any criminal to confess within minutes. It's like any other job - some people can do it and some can't.

Lastly, you're acting exactly as the police and VP down here are acting. They too have made the case that nothing bad happened to my child, so I should just be happy with the fact that our illegal questioning and subsequent lies turned up no guilt and my child wasn't arrested. The fact that your child's civil rights, and your rights as a parent, were tossed out the window should be stowed in the Let Bygones Be Bygones folder and forgotten. I hate to be crass... but that's the wrong ####ing answer! If they did this to me and my child, they're doing it to other families. So at what point to do you suggest we object to the police abusing their authority? Should it be ok for cops to plant evidence on someone they know is guilty of a crime to ease the ability to convict? And if it's a cardinal crime to not inform an adult with a long criminal history his rights for the hundredth or so time when he's questioned, why is it ok to not inform a kid who's never had occasion to be questioned by the police his rights? There seems to be something extremely wrong in that thinking... but maybe that's just me.

 

[SmallTown]

continuing your past advice, if the cop continues to not follow the rules and keeps messing with your son, tell your son to kick the #### out of him.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

Should it be ok for cops to plant evidence on someone they know is guilty of a crime to ease the ability to convict?

...I'm clearly charging this hill alone so, I guess i'ts best for me to just leave it that while, yes, I do understand there are bad cops and there are rules, I'm leaning their, the cops, way because, to me, there are so very many more bad parents out there with their little shits who know ever last right they have yet not one single responsibility.

You have, sounds to me, done a very good job with your children, so, you could probably let this go no more than you could let your kids slide if they'd broken the rule.

Kudos.

 

[dustin]

...I'm clearly charging this hill alone so, I guess i'ts best for me to just leave it that while, yes, I do understand there are bad cops and there are rules, I'm leaning their, the cops, way because, to me, there are so very many more bad parents out there with their little shits who know ever last right they have yet not one single responsibility.

You have, sounds to me, done a very good job with your children, so, you could probably let this go no more than you could let your kids slide if they'd broken the rule.

Kudos.

I still like to hear people's opinions on subject matter while not chopping them down. Thanks for your response to Bruzilla's. It's good to have conversation without namecalling.

 

[Larry Gude]

No...

Should it be legal for a minor to have to go through police questioning without a parent/guardian notified ahead of time?

Should it be legal for a minor to not know wether or not his or her parents have been notified?

...it should not.

It should also not be a big deal. In my opinion.

 

[vraiblonde]

I'm leaning their, the cops, way because, to me, there are so very many more bad parents out there with their little shits who know ever last right they have yet not one single responsibility.

Which is exactly why it's so important that sketchy cops (and teachers) should be fired - it's a public trust issue because they are in a position of authority and we, as parents and citizens, must be able to trust them.

When people who are in charge of your education (the VP) and your very freedom (the cop), there is no room for CYA and garbage like that. Both of them obviously knew they did something wrong, or they wouldn't have lied about it. How can you trust the powers that be if they lie to you and try to railroad a kid?

In Vrai's Kingdom, both of them would have been executed immediately. In real life, they should at least be fired from their jobs.