Let us Pray....

Kerad · Mar 30, 2006

In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/

Huh.

In response:

"Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural."

Whatcha think?

Railroad · Mar 31, 2006

Kerad said:
Whatcha think?

This:
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">"Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural." </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I've experienced a number of situations where prayer undoubtedly WAS the difference that helped with a person's condition. And the doctors I've known have acknowledged that there are times where the only medicine left is prayer.

So I don't pay much attention to such "studies" and reports. I file them under "for what it's worth" (not much) and continue with what I know to be true.

Kerad · Mar 31, 2006

Yeah...whether or not there is proof that patients actually fare better in the end really isn't the point. As long as the patient is in better spirits knowing people are praying for him/her...that's all that matters.

I was surprised there was actually a study done on this. I wonder how much money was spent that should have gone elsewhere.

vraiblonde · Mar 31, 2006

Railroad said:
So I don't pay much attention to such "studies" and reports. I file them under "for what it's worth" (not much) and continue with what I know to be true.

Good plan. As an athiest, even I think this "study" is garbage. I, too, have seen people who have "miraculously" gotten better, and they attribute it to prayer.

I have to say I doubt that, if there is a God, he spends a whole lot of time on helping one person recover from some illness while letting millions of Sudanese children die horrible deaths. But the mind is a very powerful thing and if you believe that something is helping you (whether it's prayer or holistic medicine or whatever), then it probably will.

What I found really interesting about this "study" is that the New York Times thought this was so earth-shattering that they put it on their front page. That pretty much highlights their agenda without a doubt.

kwillia · Mar 31, 2006

vraiblonde said:
Good plan. As an athiest, even I think this "study" is garbage. I, too, have seen people who have "miraculously" gotten better, and they attribute it to prayer.

I have to say I doubt that, if there is a God, he spends a whole lot of time on helping one person recover from some illness while letting millions of Sudanese children die horrible deaths. But the mind is a very powerful thing and if you believe that something is helping you (whether it's prayer or holistic medicine or whatever), then it probably will.

What I found really interesting about this "study" is that the New York Times thought this was so earth-shattering that they put it on their front page. That pretty much highlights their agenda without a doubt.

Exactly my thoughts! :yay:

2ndAmendment · Mar 31, 2006

Well I have witnessed miracles of healing.

I personally knew a lady in Leonardtown that had her leg healed. She went to the same prayer group I went to. One leg was shorter than the other. She was prayed over for healing. She worn shoes that had a one shoe with about a two inch riser sole. She had to leave that night without her shoes on, because with them on she hobbled. Both legs were now the same length. That is not imagination.

A lady in our church had a stroke and was told she would never have the use of her left arm again. She has been in church with her left arm raised high over her head. Another woman was to have an operation for cancer. Last set of x-rays just before surgery showed no sign of any cancer.

There are others I know of as well. God does love us. He does still perform miracles.

Tonio · Mar 31, 2006

vraiblonde said:
I have to say I doubt that, if there is a God, he spends a whole lot of time on helping one person recover from some illness while letting millions of Sudanese children die horrible deaths. But the mind is a very powerful thing and if you believe that something is helping you (whether it's prayer or holistic medicine or whatever), then it probably will.

I agree. That's a big reason why I think that all religious faith is inherently personal and why I don't like religious doctrine.

I think prayer is admirable for conveying empathy, such as for the Sudanese children, or for seeking guidance. But some believers tell you they "pray for you," but what they really want is for you to change your beliefs. And there are other believers who pray for God to solve their problems for them, like He is Superman.

2ndAmendment · Mar 31, 2006

Tonio said:
I agree. That's a big reason why I think that all religious faith is inherently personal and why I don't like religious doctrine.

I think prayer is admirable for conveying empathy, such as for the Sudanese children, or for seeking guidance. But some believers tell you they "pray for you," but what they really want is for you to change your beliefs. And there are other believers who pray for God to solve their problems for them, like He is Superman.

God is much more than "Superman".

If you believe that God is the Creator and that everything is created by Him, then it is easy to know that He has control over everything and can do as He pleases with everything. He can suspend the laws of physics and do things that are beyond human comprehension. He is God.

itsbob · Mar 31, 2006

vraiblonde said:
Good plan. As an athiest, even I think this "study" is garbage. I, too, have seen people who have "miraculously" gotten better, and they attribute it to prayer.

A lot of "heathens" miraculously get better too.. without any sort of medical explanation.. stuff happens..

itsbob · Mar 31, 2006

2ndAmendment said:
God is much more than "Superman".

If you believe that God is the Creator and that everything is created by Him, then it is easy to know that He has control over everything and can do as He pleases with everything. He can suspend the laws of physics and do things that are beyond human comprehension. He is God.

What about Buddha??

WWBD??

Bustem' Down · Mar 31, 2006

itsbob said:
What about Buddha??

WWBD??

vraiblonde · Mar 31, 2006

2ndAmendment said:
If you believe that God is the Creator and that everything is created by Him, then it is easy to know that He has control over everything and can do as He pleases with everything. He can suspend the laws of physics and do things that are beyond human comprehension. He is God.

Then why does He heal the sick, but not help the millions of starving orphans in Africa and other countries?

I'm not asking that to be argumentative or hostile - I'm genuinely interested in your beliefs about this.

dems4me · Mar 31, 2006

vraiblonde said:
Then why does He heal the sick, but not help the millions of starving orphans in Africa and other countries?

I'm not asking that to be argumentative or hostile - I'm genuinely interested in your beliefs about this.

My belief on this is things happen for a reason... we may not know the reason but they do - God's reasoning and logic not our own. God's reasoning and logic is beyond our own comprehension. :smile:

itsbob · Mar 31, 2006

vraiblonde said:
Then why does He heal the sick, but not help the millions of starving orphans in Africa and other countries?

I'm not asking that to be argumentative or hostile - I'm genuinely interested in your beliefs about this.

Cause Africans (mostly) aren't Christian ... duh!! :jameo:

They all pray to the wrong God.

bresamil · Mar 31, 2006

vraiblonde said:
Then why does He heal the sick, but not help the millions of starving orphans in Africa and other countries?

I'm not asking that to be argumentative or hostile - I'm genuinely interested in your beliefs about this.

Maybe they didn't ask? :shrug: I'm not a quoter but isn't there some Bible passage of "seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive"?

vraiblonde · Mar 31, 2006

dems4me said:
My belief on this is things happen for a reason... we may not know the reason but they do - God's reasoning and logic not our own. God's reasoning and logic is beyond our own comprehension.

I'm content with that :yay:

2ndAmendment · Mar 31, 2006

bresamil said:
Maybe they didn't ask? :shrug: I'm not a quoter but isn't there some Bible passage of "seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive"?

Matthew 7:7-12

7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

9"Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?

10"Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?

11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

12"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Vrai, God rewards those that seek Him. He is the Potter. Does the clay say to the potter, why did you do this?

Isaiah 29:13-16

13Then the Lord said,
"Because this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,
14Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous;
And the wisdom of their wise men will perish,
And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed."
15Woe to those who deeply hide their plans from the LORD,
And whose deeds are done in a dark place,
And they say, "Who sees us?" or "Who knows us?"
16You turn things around!
Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay,
That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me";
Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

God creates each person for His purpose whether we understand that purpose or not is irrelevant. Why are some people rich and some poor? This life is transient and is for one purpose, seeking God and developing a relationship with Him. Beyond that, all is futile. Death in this life is the great equalizer. It does not matter whether you are rich or poor, young or old, sick or well; black, white, or some other color; or any other differentiation we may make. We are all equal in the sight of God and He loves us all. The only discriminator is whether we love Him or not and show that love by following His ways. The last chapters of Job puts it in perspective.

Job 38

God Speaks Now to Job

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
2"Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3"Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
4"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6"On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8"Or who enclosed the sea with doors
When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;
9When I made a cloud its garment
And thick darkness its swaddling band,
10And I placed boundaries on it
And set a bolt and doors,
11And I said, 'Thus far you shall come, but no farther;
And here shall your proud waves stop'?

God's Mighty Power

12"Have you ever in your life commanded the morning,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14"It is changed like clay under the seal;
And they stand forth like a garment.
15"From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the uplifted arm is broken.
16"Have you entered into the springs of the sea
Or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17"Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18"Have you understood the expanse of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
19"Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20That you may take it to its territory
And that you may discern the paths to its home?
21"You know, for you were born then,
And the number of your days is great!
22"Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of war and battle?
24"Where is the way that the light is divided,
Or the east wind scattered on the earth?
25"Who has cleft a channel for the flood,
Or a way for the thunderbolt,
26To bring rain on a land without people,
On a desert without a man in it,
27To satisfy the waste and desolate land
And to make the seeds of grass to sprout?
28"Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29"From whose womb has come the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who has given it birth?
30"Water becomes hard like stone,
And the surface of the deep is imprisoned.
31"Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades,
Or loose the cords of Orion?
32"Can you lead forth a constellation in its season,
And guide the Bear with her satellites?
33"Do you know the ordinances of the heavens,
Or fix their rule over the earth?
34"Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
So that an abundance of water will cover you?
35"Can you send forth lightnings that they may go
And say to you, 'Here we are'?
36"Who has put wisdom in the innermost being
Or given understanding to the mind?
37"Who can count the clouds by wisdom,
Or tip the water jars of the heavens,
38When the dust hardens into a mass
And the clods stick together?
39"Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40When they crouch in their dens
And lie in wait in their lair?
41"Who prepares for the raven its nourishment
When its young cry to God
And wander about without food?

2ndAmendment · Mar 31, 2006

<h4>Job 39
</h4>
<h5>God Speaks of Nature and Its Beings
</h5>    1"Do you know the time the mountain goats give birth?
          Do you observe the calving of the deer?
     2"Can you count the months they fulfill,
          Or do you know the time they give birth?
     3"They kneel down, they bring forth their young,
          They get rid of their labor pains.
     4"Their offspring become strong, they grow up in the open field;
          They leave and do not return to them.
     5"Who sent out the wild donkey free?
          And who loosed the bonds of the swift donkey,
     6To whom I gave the wilderness for a home
          And the salt land for his dwelling place?
     7"He scorns the tumult of the city,
          The shoutings of the driver he does not hear.
     8"He explores the mountains for his pasture
          And searches after every green thing.
     9"Will the wild ox consent to serve you,
          Or will he spend the night at your manger?
     10"Can you bind the wild ox in a furrow with ropes,
          Or will he harrow the valleys after you?
     11"Will you trust him because his strength is great
          And leave your labor to him?
     12"Will you have faith in him that he will return your grain
          And gather it from your threshing floor?
     13"The ostriches' wings flap joyously
          With the pinion and plumage of love,
     14For she abandons her eggs to the earth
          And warms them in the dust,
     15And she forgets that a foot may crush them,
          Or that a wild beast may trample them.
     16"She treats her young cruelly, as if they were not hers;
          Though her labor be in vain, she is unconcerned;
     17Because God has made her forget wisdom,
          And has not given her a share of understanding.
     18"When she lifts herself on high,
          She laughs at the horse and his rider.
     19"Do you give the horse his might?
          Do you clothe his neck with a mane?
     20"Do you make him leap like the locust?
          His majestic snorting is terrible.
     21"He paws in the valley, and rejoices in his strength;
          He goes out to meet the weapons.
     22"He laughs at fear and is not dismayed;
          And he does not turn back from the sword.
     23"The quiver rattles against him,
          The flashing spear and javelin.
     24"With shaking and rage he races over the ground,
          And he does not stand still at the voice of the trumpet.
     25"As often as the trumpet sounds he says, 'Aha!'
          And he scents the battle from afar,
          And the thunder of the captains and the war cry.
     26"Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars,
          Stretching his wings toward the south?
     27"Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up
          And makes his nest on high?
     28"On the cliff he dwells and lodges,
          Upon the rocky crag, an inaccessible place.
     29"From there he spies out food;
          His eyes see it from afar.
     30"His young ones also suck up blood;
          And where the slain are, there is he."

2ndAmendment · Mar 31, 2006

<h4>Job 40
</h4>
<h5>Job: What Can I Say?
</h5> 1Then the LORD said to Job,
     2"Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
          Let him who reproves God answer it."
 3Then Job answered the LORD and said,
     4"Behold, I am insignificant; what can I reply to You?
          I lay my hand on my mouth.
     5"Once I have spoken, and I will not answer;
          Even twice, and I will add nothing more."

<h5>God Questions Job
</h5> 6Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm and said,
     7"Now gird up your loins like a man;
          I will ask you, and you instruct Me.
     8"Will you really annul My judgment?
          Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?
     9"Or do you have an arm like God,
          And can you thunder with a voice like His?
     10"Adorn yourself with eminence and dignity,
          And clothe yourself with honor and majesty.
     11"Pour out the overflowings of your anger,
          And look on everyone who is proud, and make him low.
     12"Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him,
          And tread down the wicked where they stand.
     13"Hide them in the dust together;
          Bind them in the hidden place.
     14"Then I will also confess to you,
          That your own right hand can save you.
<h5>God's Power Shown in Creatures
</h5>    15"Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you;
          He eats grass like an ox.
     16"Behold now, his strength in his loins
          And his power in the muscles of his belly.
     17"He bends his tail like a cedar;
          The sinews of his thighs are knit together.
     18"His bones are tubes of bronze;
          His limbs are like bars of iron.
     19"He is the first of the ways of God;
          Let his maker bring near his sword.
     20"Surely the mountains bring him food,
          And all the beasts of the field play there.
     21"Under the lotus plants he lies down,
          In the covert of the reeds and the marsh.
     22"The lotus plants cover him with shade;
          The willows of the brook surround him.
     23"If a river rages, he is not alarmed;
          He is confident, though the Jordan rushes to his mouth.
     24"Can anyone capture him when he is on watch,
          With barbs can anyone pierce his nose?

2ndAmendment · Mar 31, 2006

<h4>Job 41
</h4>
<h5>God's Power Shown in Creatures
</h5>    1"Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook?
          Or press down his tongue with a cord?
     2"Can you put a rope in his nose
          Or pierce his jaw with a hook?
     3"Will he make many supplications to you,
          Or will he speak to you soft words?
     4"Will he make a covenant with you?
          Will you take him for a servant forever?
     5"Will you play with him as with a bird,
          Or will you bind him for your maidens?
     6"Will the traders bargain over him?
          Will they divide him among the merchants?
     7"Can you fill his skin with harpoons,
          Or his head with fishing spears?
     8"Lay your hand on him;
          Remember the battle; you will not do it again!
     9"Behold, your expectation is false;
          Will you be laid low even at the sight of him?
     10"No one is so fierce that he dares to arouse him;
          Who then is he that can stand before Me?
     11"Who has given to Me that I should repay him?
          Whatever is under the whole heaven is Mine.
     12"I will not keep silence concerning his limbs,
          Or his mighty strength, or his orderly frame.
     13"Who can strip off his outer armor?
          Who can come within his double mail?
     14"Who can open the doors of his face?
          Around his teeth there is terror.
     15"His strong scales are his pride,
          Shut up as with a tight seal.
     16"One is so near to another
          That no air can come between them.
     17"They are joined one to another;
          They clasp each other and cannot be separated.
     18"His sneezes flash forth light,
          And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
     19"Out of his mouth go burning torches;
          Sparks of fire leap forth.
     20"Out of his nostrils smoke goes forth
          As from a boiling pot and burning rushes.
     21"His breath kindles coals,
          And a flame goes forth from his mouth.
     22"In his neck lodges strength,
          And dismay leaps before him.
     23"The folds of his flesh are joined together,
          Firm on him and immovable.
     24"His heart is as hard as a stone,
          Even as hard as a lower millstone.
     25"When he raises himself up, the mighty fear;
          Because of the crashing they are bewildered.
     26"The sword that reaches him cannot avail,
          Nor the spear, the dart or the javelin.
     27"He regards iron as straw,
          Bronze as rotten wood.
     28"The arrow cannot make him flee;
          Slingstones are turned into stubble for him.
     29"Clubs are regarded as stubble;
          He laughs at the rattling of the javelin.
     30"His underparts are like sharp potsherds;
          He spreads out like a threshing sledge on the mire.
     31"He makes the depths boil like a pot;
          He makes the sea like a jar of ointment.
     32"Behind him he makes a wake to shine;
          One would think the deep to be gray-haired.
     33"Nothing on earth is like him,
          One made without fear.
     34"He looks on everything that is high;
          He is king over all the sons of pride."

Let us Pray....

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