Look at all the Heroin Addicts

[inkah]

I looked for 60 seconds and found anywhere from $2k a month to $20k. To HELP people. To, ideally, help them turn their lives around. You honestly gonna compare that to jail, for one, and the majority negative outcomes, for 2, of jail?

Given the good it amounted to in my experience. Yes.

He wasn't the only one that needed help. Protect the innocent first.

I've seen people make it out - who were helped by rehab. I think. But they are so rare. And taking away legal consequences for people who choose to live like this absolutely terrifies me. No kidding. Because I know what addicts will do when they can get away with it.

 

[IneedSkrimps]

If legalization meant no tax increase for me, and no increased government spending, and no crime associated with it, and no loafing stoners hanging out where I want to be, or zombies peeling their flesh off in front of me, then I would have no opinion on this issue. My kids are well into adulthood and if they were going to be addicts they'd have probably done it by now, so that's not an issue either.

But your hypothetical sucks because there WILL be increased spending. There WILL be increased crime. And there WILL be an increase in public nuisances.

So if pigs could fly, yes, I'd be all about the flying bacon. Alas...

So what is better for the country, or you personally:

1) A low income 21 year old does something many dumb young kids do and gets arrested for possession of weed. He cant pay his legal bills so he gets a public defender and is helped via tax money. Now he cant find a job that will hire him. He wants to work, but is unable to find work. So what are his options? Crime or state assistance?

or

2) The same kid goes to a dispensary and buys weed grown by a local business and sold by a local business that employees people from the area. He pays taxes on the purchase and goes home to smoke in his house. Since it is legal, he doesn't get arrested and is still able to work. The tax money that he and others generate at the dispensary's is spent on schools, roads, and drug treatment programs for addicts of all vices. The jails and courts are no longer clogged up with simple possession charges and jail cells are no longer filled by people arrested multiple times for weed. The black market is significantly decreased due to easier access, and the crime related to the black market and cartels is lowered.



I know which scenario I prefer.

 

[inkah]

So what is better for the country, or you personally:

1) A low income 21 year old does something many dumb young kids do and gets arrested for possession of weed. He cant pay his legal bills so he gets a public defender and is helped via tax money. Now he cant find a job that will hire him. He wants to work, but is unable to find work. So what are his options? Crime or state assistance?

or

2) The same kid goes to a dispensary and buys weed grown by a local business and sold by a local business that employees people from the area. He pays taxes on the purchase and goes home to smoke in his house. Since it is legal, he doesn't get arrested and is still able to work. The tax money that he and others generate at the dispensary's is spent on schools, roads, and drug treatment programs for addicts of all vices. The jails and courts are no longer clogged up with simple possession charges and jail cells are no longer filled by people arrested multiple times for weed. The black market is significantly decreased due to easier access, and the crime related to the black market and cartels is lowered.



I know which scenario I prefer.

But your scenarios are based on propaganda and not reality.

Do we know what happens to young minds that get high every day for years on end? (and please don't be so naïve as to think these "scripts" are not being given to underage children).

 

[inkah]

I think this is probably part of the problem; You say that as thought the only thing keeping you from destroying your health with food is the cost. I think a lot of people believe that is all this is; that people want to be addicts. Want to be junkies. Even if that is so, wouldn't we still rather just pay for drug addicts and stop making dealers rich, king pins richer, our system corrupt, and put an end to most of the violence and end the hypocrisy and cynicism?

Cost wasn't my point. And not that this really matters to the discussion, but I can assure you that I am very well acquainted with the fact that addicts sometimes don't want to be addicts. And I am pretty sure I've already stated that I am know beyond well how complicated the issue is and it can't be resolved by dealing with only one small aspect, like cost.

And to your question "wouldn't we still rather just pay for the drug addicts...?" -- I can't find a font big enough and bold enough font for my HELL NO.

 

[Larry Gude]

Cost wasn't my point. And not that this really matters to the discussion, but I can assure you that I am very well acquainted with the fact that addicts sometimes don't want to be addicts. And I am pretty sure I've already stated that I am know beyond well how complicated the issue is and it can't be resolved by dealing with only one small aspect, like cost.

And to your question "wouldn't we still rather just pay for the drug addicts...?" -- I can't find a font big enough and bold enough font for my HELL NO.

Allow me to clarify, give the choice, you, we, ARE paying for the addicts, the crime, the violence, the corruption, the cynicism, agreed? If so, wouldn't we prefer to be paying just for the addicts? We know we're not going to be like the Taliban and kill drug users and dealers (unless they're on the approved list), agreed? So, unless we like the corruption and violence and cynicism, unless we liked prohibition I, why are we doing it again? Other than to support those folks, the dealers, the crooked cops and judges and lawyers? The people all too happy to have more trauma patients? The drug culture?

 

[inkah]

http://www.thebaynet.com/articles/0416/manchargedwithpilldistributionatelementaryschool.html

Oh, these poor young men! Please, can we just help them? It isn't like we can prove they were actually dealing TO children . I can't believe that had to be in handcuffs. Those things are sometimes so TIGHT, gosh darnit. And they obviously didn't really know what they were doing, since the report clearly implies they were under the influence. Maybe one of you will just let them spend the night so they have a chance. After they get a good night's sleep, be sure to have them mow your lawn. They need jobs after all. And don't worry about having your children at home - they are already used to spending time around the kids at the elementary school. By golly gosh darn, your kids may already know them - wouldn't that just be jolly!!??!!

 

[Larry Gude]

I've seen people make it out - who were helped by rehab. I think. But they are so rare. And taking away legal consequences for people who choose to live like this absolutely terrifies me. No kidding. Because I know what addicts will do when they can get away with it.

But legal consequences do not work or there'd be no drug trade or partakers. The last thing I want is anyone having their life destroyed by drugs yet, with prohibition, that IS what is happening.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

But legal consequences do not work or there'd be no drug trade or partakers. The last thing I want is anyone having their life destroyed by drugs yet, with prohibition, that IS what is happening.

Prohibition isn't what is destroying their lives, their decisions are what destroys their life. There are plenty of lives destroyed by alcohol and by legal prescriptions, I recently had a friend die that was killed by his pain medication prescribed by his own doctor. His savings wiped out, his children fatherless, and it was all done without violating a single law.

 

[IneedSkrimps]

But your scenarios are based on propaganda and not reality.

Do we know what happens to young minds that get high every day for years on end? (and please don't be so naïve as to think these "scripts" are not being given to underage children).

How are they not based in reality. They happen every single day in states the have legalized and ones that haven't.

Were you as vocal about your concerns for young minds regarding opiates, depression meds, ADD meds?

Probably not. Because you were told by the government that marijuana was bad and you were told those others were good. Even though they are just as harmful.

 

[IneedSkrimps]

Opiate usage is also much lower In states that have legalized marijuana in some form. Which as everyone knows is the main precursor to heroin use.

That is called harm reduction. Taking something bad and replacing it with something less bad. Because it is not possible to completely eliminate. Which the war on drugs has shown.




(I do not support the legalization of all drugs, but I think there has to be a better way than the current awful system.)

 

[vraiblonde]

Prohibition isn't what is destroying their lives, their decisions are what destroys their life.

I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

 

[Larry Gude]

Opiate usage is also much lower In states that have legalized marijuana in some form. Which as everyone knows is the main precursor to heroin use.

That is called harm reduction. Taking something bad and replacing it with something less bad. Because it is not possible to completely eliminate. Which the war on drugs has shown.




(I do not support the legalization of all drugs, but I think there has to be a better way than the current awful system.)

Good luck, pal. And don't even try the beer/hard liquor prohibition line. This is Taliban country here.

 

[vraiblonde]

This is Taliban country here.

We are the Taliban because we don't want people strung out and addicted to drugs.

Okay.

 

[Larry Gude]

We are the Taliban because we don't want people strung out and addicted to drugs.

Okay.

Neither do i. What we're doing isn't working.

 

[vraiblonde]

Neither do i. What we're doing isn't working.

You don't know that. Perhaps if drugs were all legal, there would be MORE death, MORE crime, MORE devastated families. You don't know.

And you define "working" as 100% perfection, and that's just not going to happen. With anything. Ever.

 

[IneedSkrimps]

You don't know that. Perhaps if drugs were all legal, there would be MORE death, MORE crime, MORE devastated families. You don't know.

And you define "working" as 100% perfection, and that's just not going to happen. With anything. Ever.

Relax Grandma, nobody is saying we should be selling heroin in Walmart. Just that maybe instead of throwing people in jail and ENSURING they will never be a productive member of society, how about we try something else first. If it doesn't work, then off to jail fine, but maybe we can spend that money on helping them change instead. So they have a shot at turning their life around.

And yes, we do know. Colorado and Washington have not seen increased deaths and crime has gone down. Also teen use has gone down.

And you might as well get used to it, because you baby boomers are no longer the majority. The next generation is taking over and frankly we think your policies and positions suck. Change is coming.

 

[tom88]

You know anyone who got cancer? Diabetes? Sever weight problems? Gout? Respiratory problems? Heart ailments? Depression? Anxiety? Drinking problem? Trying to quit cigarettes?

We treat those as health issues. Not criminal.

Last time I checked trying to give up heroin was a health issue. It's treated by doctors. Having a drinking problem, like having a heroin addiction is not a crime. Possessing heroin and distributing heroin just like drinking in public and selling moonshine are crimes.

 

[vince77]

Relax Grandma, nobody is saying we should be selling heroin in Walmart. Just that maybe instead of throwing people in jail and ENSURING they will never be a productive member of society, how about we try something else first. If it doesn't work, then off to jail fine, but maybe we can spend that money on helping them change instead. So they have a shot at turning their life around.

And yes, we do know. Colorado and Washington have not seen increased deaths and crime has gone down. Also teen use has gone down.

And you might as well get used to it, because you baby boomers are no longer the majority. The next generation is taking over and frankly we think your policies and positions suck. Change is coming.

I remember those sentiments in the late 60's/early 70's. Figured out age doesn't determine much, wealth does. If you're not pulling the wagon, you have little say in where it goes.

 

[tom88]

And yes, we do know. Colorado and Washington have not seen increased deaths and crime has gone down. Also teen use has gone down.

And you might as well get used to it, because you baby boomers are no longer the majority. The next generation is taking over and frankly we think your policies and positions suck. Change is coming.

Your rudeness and inability to read and comprehend all what she said aside, it is supposed to work that way that the next generation eventually takes over.

NO, you don't know. Last time I checked, ALL drugs were not legal in Washington and Colorado. I would wager a weeks salary, that Crystal meth and heroin are not sold legally in either of those states. That being the case we don't know if that would increase drug deaths. What we DO know is that since heroin is on the rise, so are local heroin overdoses causing deaths.

Instead of concentrating on insults, maybe you should concentrate on learning the whole issue.

 

[Gilligan]

The next generation is taking over and frankly we think your policies and positions suck. Change is coming.

Too darned bad about y'all being so broke though, eh?