My husband and I are relatively new to the area we live in Owings, MD and are looking for a church with a very traditional catholic mass. My husband is not interested in holding hands to recite the "Our Father" or having any charismatic activity during the mass. Does anyone know of a catholic church in Southern Maryland that we could attend that would not make him uncomfortable. Thanks!undefinedundefined
Looking for a traditional Catholic Mass?
- Thread starter Peakcity
- Start date
Tina2001aniT
New Member
May I ask why holding hands to recite the our father and some of the other "not so traditional" things in a catholic mass are not good or wanted?Peakcity said:
B
bennydafig
Guest
homophobia.Tina2001aniT said:
itsbob and the other not taking this seriously, please remember this is the Religion forum. The question was serious and in a serious section of the forums. I would hope you would have some respect for others.
Vince
......
I go to Catholic services and we don't hold hands during the Our Father. If you're with family, yes. But if you're alone, we just raise our hands, or like me, I fold them as for normal prayer. They say, "pray as we have been taught." well I was taught to say the Our Father with my hands together as a normal prayer.Tina2001aniT said:
DD214
Member
Tina2001aniT said:
I guess it really depends on how faithful you wish to be (assuming you are Catholic) to the laws of the Church. If you have no desire to be orthodox, then anything I say from here on will not be of interest to you, but just in case you or anyone else really do care, I'll give a brief explanation. *disclaimer: I am not a priest or a Canon Lawyer, so if someone knows better, please correct me. I'm actually a recent convert.*
Holding hands during Mass is not found in any liturgical document, and so it is an innovation to the Mass. Adding anything to the Mass is a violation of the Code of Canon Law 826.1 which states the following:
"The liturgical books approved by the competent authority are to be faithfully observed in the celebration of the sacraments; therefore, no one on personal authority may add, remove, or change anything in them"
If you Google this subject you will find numerous Vatican queries that address this subject, and each time the officials in Rome state that the habit of holding hands during the Our Father should be discouraged.
Every action in the Mass has meaning. The sign of the cross, the sign of peace, kneeling, etc. - they all have meaning and are not arbitrary gestures. Holding hands during the Our Father does no belong there because it emphasizes the horizontal (community) rather than the vertical (God), and the Our Father is to be directed at God, not our neighbor in the pew. The time to acknowledge those next to you is during the Sign of Peace.
And another thing, I just don't know why we all can't live by the rules. Why do some individuals take something like the Mass, which has been refined over 2000 years, and decide that it is not to their liking, and then add or subtract from it on personal initiative? Changes to the Mass should be left to those who actually understand/care what each part of the Mass means, and who are given the authority to initiate such changes.
I find it really sad that someone like the original poster, Peakcity, must search for a Mass that is celebrated the way it is meant (and mandated) to be celebrated. All Catholic churches should live by the very rules that they are bound to uphold. Kudos to the priests and parishioners at my parish, St. John Francis Regis, for choosing to follow the rules and not hold hands during the Our Father. It seems to be a rarity in the United States these days.
Tina2001aniT
New Member
Did I judge your preference?? No actually I did not, I was wondering why people felt that way, curiousity. That is a big factor in what I look for in a church, a sense of community, feel I get more out of it that way, was just asking why you felt that you didn't want that, was CURIOUS, not judging you in any way, so get off the defensive and read what was written.....Peakcity said:
FastCarsSpeed
Come Play at BigWoodys
DD214 said:
I dont think it has anything to do with messing with the traditional mass. And if you had paid attention at the end of the our father we lift our hands to the lord "As a church". My church it is done usually by family members. I was at Tina's church this morning and pretty much the entire church holds hands which I think establishes a sense of community. As time goes on and the world changes the church tends to adjust some because as our civilization grows so does our knowledge. Peakcity I do understand your point of view and I am in no way critizing you. I go to St. Marys Bryantown in Charles county one of the oldest catholic churches in Maryland. Like I said my church it is more family based where you see that for the our father. I think St. Peters is a little more traditional also and you wont see that.
DD,
I take it your church does not have female alter servers???? Hmmm as far as I know the church does not recommend this either but you know what TIMES change and are you telling me this is not acceptable? Some of the traditions that I seem to love that have been finally brought back to our church is the wringing of the bells during communion which we had lost for a long time. I do love some of the tradition but I also like alot of the things the church has done to bring the community closer together.
DD214
Member
FastCarsSpeed,
I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. We, whether laity or priest, have no authority to make changes to the Mass. It is forbidden. Sure, holding hands during the Our Father seems harmless enough, although there are many theological explanations as to why it is not, but where do you draw the line? When is it OK to make changes on personal initiative, and when is it not? At some point that thin line will be crossed and the Mass will be invalid. That is why it bothers me personally. Not the act of holding hands, but knowing that doing so is basically like telling the visible Church hierarchy to piss off. If at some point those in charge of the liturgy decide that holding hands during the Our Father makes theological sense and they decide to allow it, then I will gladly do so. I don't think that most of the people holding hands are guilty as they probably don't know any better, but the priest that allows liturgical abuse surely is, and he DOES know better.
I am not a strict traditionalist; I just want to see the rules that are in place followed as they are meant to be. Yes, my parish has female altar servers, but I have no problem with that because it IS allowed. Sure, Rome says that boys should be given preference since it helps vocations, but it is allowed none the less. And by the way, St. John's is not a traditionalist parish by any means. The priest just celebrates the Mass within the boundaries established by the liturgical documents provided by those in authority. I have only been attending St. John's for about 3 years, but during those 3 years there has never been hand holding. I assume that at some point before I arrived the priest instructed the members of the parish on the proper way to pray the Our Father, which is what all priests should do.
I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. We, whether laity or priest, have no authority to make changes to the Mass. It is forbidden. Sure, holding hands during the Our Father seems harmless enough, although there are many theological explanations as to why it is not, but where do you draw the line? When is it OK to make changes on personal initiative, and when is it not? At some point that thin line will be crossed and the Mass will be invalid. That is why it bothers me personally. Not the act of holding hands, but knowing that doing so is basically like telling the visible Church hierarchy to piss off. If at some point those in charge of the liturgy decide that holding hands during the Our Father makes theological sense and they decide to allow it, then I will gladly do so. I don't think that most of the people holding hands are guilty as they probably don't know any better, but the priest that allows liturgical abuse surely is, and he DOES know better.
I am not a strict traditionalist; I just want to see the rules that are in place followed as they are meant to be. Yes, my parish has female altar servers, but I have no problem with that because it IS allowed. Sure, Rome says that boys should be given preference since it helps vocations, but it is allowed none the less. And by the way, St. John's is not a traditionalist parish by any means. The priest just celebrates the Mass within the boundaries established by the liturgical documents provided by those in authority. I have only been attending St. John's for about 3 years, but during those 3 years there has never been hand holding. I assume that at some point before I arrived the priest instructed the members of the parish on the proper way to pray the Our Father, which is what all priests should do.
FastCarsSpeed
Come Play at BigWoodys
DD214 said:
Oh I'm not missing the point at all I think I have found out where the disconnect is though. After doing some reading on the subject "Thanks Google" I have seen where the issue lies. The priest may not at any time direct the congregation to hold hands as that would be modifying the mass according to Canon Law. As I have been to prolly over 8 Catholic churches in the US over the past say 6 years I have seen holding hands at many masses.. Whether it be a family, or the whole church. I have never seen this at the direction of any priest or deacon for that matter. It is not against the rules to hold hands only against making the congregation do so. I have not seen a church community shun someone because they did not hold hands during a mass. It is personal choice plain and simple. The church has discussed this numerous times and as you said, there were even problems with parishioners posturing as the priest does during the our father but it has been determined to be allowed and no such rules have been made to forbid someone to do that either. Each Catholic church is their own community and each of them celebrate the mass a little differently then others but overall they should all follow the ruberics which states what is proper for the mass.
I guess the best way to put this you have to find the church that best suits your ideals.
This was a good discussion and intrigued my curiousity.
DD214
Member
FastCarsSpeed,
I've been doing some reading as well, and I stand corrected about the laity violating Canon Law by holding hands. Mea Culpa. They technically are not, since there is no prescribed position during the Lord's Prayer...yet. I came across a few Vatican insider sites that claim that the new Roman Missal may/will prescribe the orans position during the Lord's Prayer to break the habit of holding hands. At that point, continuing to hold hands would be a violation of Canon Law. But as of now it is just considered an innovation to the Mass. I still disagree with it though, as it is not prescribed and creates situations such as the original subject of this thread. I think Fr. Saunders put it best at the end of an article he wrote about the subject:
Granted, the holding of hands during the Lord's Prayer seems to have become almost a tradition in some parishes throughout the country. Nevertheless, we must remember that this gesture is not prescribed, it is an innovation to the Mass, and in its goal to build unity and sensitivity, it can be alienating and insensitive to individuals.
The rest of the article pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject. It can be found here -> http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/99ws/ws990715.htm
You may not have seen a congregation openly shun anyone for not holding hands, but I can tell you from experience that if you are the one not going along, you very likely will feel very uncomfortable, and quite possibly shunned. My first 2 years as a Catholic, I attended a parish where holding hands was the norm for the congregation. I chose not to participate because I not only knew that it was not a prescribed position, but I knew that the Vatican and many of the Bishops view the hand holding thing as a problem. I felt very uncomfortable during the Lord's Prayer because the person next to me would always make a grab for my hand, and when I didn't reciprocate the gesture I would usually get the "fine, have it your way, jerk" look. When I was looking for a parish here in S.MD, I frequently received the same treatment.
So, my question is this - why should we consider a gesture good when it A) is not prescribed B) is seen as a problem by many of the Bishops and priests C) alienates people D) disrupts the spiritual flow of the Mass, as explained by Fr. Saunders? Don't you think it would be better to just celebrate the Mass per the rubrics and let the Congregation of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments decide whether to add it or not? And I don't mean for this to be a loaded question. I only ask because you seem like a reasonable person, and I would like to understand what your reasoning is on the subject.
Regarding your final point -
Each Catholic church is their own community...you have to find the church that best suits your ideals.
Although I am quite guilty of it myself, parish shopping is frowned upon. Catholics are expected to attend the parish of their residence. I was actually rebuked by a former St. John's priest when he found out that I was not in his geographical parish. I told him about some of the silliness going on at the church in my neighborhood, and that I refuse to sacrifice my children's faith on the altar of political correctness, and he agreed that in extreme circumstances parish shopping could be allowed. My point is this, although yes, each parish is a community of believers, our community should not be viewed merely locally, but rather as that of the Universal Church, spanning all of space and time. Any Catholic should be able to walk into any Catholic church and not feel alienated or expected to take part in gestures, actions, or beliefs not prescribed by the Universal Church. We are to strive to mold ourselves in the Church's image, not to mold the Church into the image that makes us most comfortable. If every Church lived by the letter of the law as set forth then there would be no need for Peakcity or anyone else to go parish shopping (except for the occasional heretical priest, which should be avoided of course).
Yes, this is a good discussion. It is always good to get a view from the other side without the discussion degenerating into ad hominem attacks and anger (and quite often an occasion for sin).
I've been doing some reading as well, and I stand corrected about the laity violating Canon Law by holding hands. Mea Culpa. They technically are not, since there is no prescribed position during the Lord's Prayer...yet. I came across a few Vatican insider sites that claim that the new Roman Missal may/will prescribe the orans position during the Lord's Prayer to break the habit of holding hands. At that point, continuing to hold hands would be a violation of Canon Law. But as of now it is just considered an innovation to the Mass. I still disagree with it though, as it is not prescribed and creates situations such as the original subject of this thread. I think Fr. Saunders put it best at the end of an article he wrote about the subject:
Granted, the holding of hands during the Lord's Prayer seems to have become almost a tradition in some parishes throughout the country. Nevertheless, we must remember that this gesture is not prescribed, it is an innovation to the Mass, and in its goal to build unity and sensitivity, it can be alienating and insensitive to individuals.
The rest of the article pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject. It can be found here -> http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/99ws/ws990715.htm
You may not have seen a congregation openly shun anyone for not holding hands, but I can tell you from experience that if you are the one not going along, you very likely will feel very uncomfortable, and quite possibly shunned. My first 2 years as a Catholic, I attended a parish where holding hands was the norm for the congregation. I chose not to participate because I not only knew that it was not a prescribed position, but I knew that the Vatican and many of the Bishops view the hand holding thing as a problem. I felt very uncomfortable during the Lord's Prayer because the person next to me would always make a grab for my hand, and when I didn't reciprocate the gesture I would usually get the "fine, have it your way, jerk" look. When I was looking for a parish here in S.MD, I frequently received the same treatment.
So, my question is this - why should we consider a gesture good when it A) is not prescribed B) is seen as a problem by many of the Bishops and priests C) alienates people D) disrupts the spiritual flow of the Mass, as explained by Fr. Saunders? Don't you think it would be better to just celebrate the Mass per the rubrics and let the Congregation of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments decide whether to add it or not? And I don't mean for this to be a loaded question. I only ask because you seem like a reasonable person, and I would like to understand what your reasoning is on the subject.
Regarding your final point -
Each Catholic church is their own community...you have to find the church that best suits your ideals.
Although I am quite guilty of it myself, parish shopping is frowned upon. Catholics are expected to attend the parish of their residence. I was actually rebuked by a former St. John's priest when he found out that I was not in his geographical parish. I told him about some of the silliness going on at the church in my neighborhood, and that I refuse to sacrifice my children's faith on the altar of political correctness, and he agreed that in extreme circumstances parish shopping could be allowed. My point is this, although yes, each parish is a community of believers, our community should not be viewed merely locally, but rather as that of the Universal Church, spanning all of space and time. Any Catholic should be able to walk into any Catholic church and not feel alienated or expected to take part in gestures, actions, or beliefs not prescribed by the Universal Church. We are to strive to mold ourselves in the Church's image, not to mold the Church into the image that makes us most comfortable. If every Church lived by the letter of the law as set forth then there would be no need for Peakcity or anyone else to go parish shopping (except for the occasional heretical priest, which should be avoided of course).
Yes, this is a good discussion. It is always good to get a view from the other side without the discussion degenerating into ad hominem attacks and anger (and quite often an occasion for sin).
FastCarsSpeed
Come Play at BigWoodys
DD214 said:
Exactly LOL,
I love debate and I can play both sides when I need to which comes in handy here on the boards sometimes. Yes Church shopping is frowned upon. I am lucky to live in Northern St. Marys so I have my choice of about 4 churches technially in my area. I found St. Marys and made it my home and it is probably the closest church to my home and my children attend the catholic school there also. I can tell you when I started going to this church our priest was horrible. He was banished it seemed to our parish because he had messed up when he was in DC apparently. The church finally let him retire which is actually very early for a priest as far as I can tell. Our new priest is wonderful and mass is jam packed now which is the pitfall it seems of having a good priest these days. Now I "HAVE" to be at church 20 min early or Im standing hahaha.
Until the next debate
5.2 Holding Hands during the Our Father
Holding hands during the Our Father has become commonplace, but it is an illicit addition to the Liturgy. Clarifications and Interpretations of the GIRM ["Notitiae" Vol. XI (1975) p. 226] explains:
". . .holding hands is a sign of intimacy and not reconciliation, and as such disrupts the flow of the Sacramental signs in the Mass which leads to the Sacramental sign of intimacy with Christ and our neighbor, Holy Communion."
source: Is Your Mass Valid? Liturgical Abuse
Holding hands during the Our Father has become commonplace, but it is an illicit addition to the Liturgy. Clarifications and Interpretations of the GIRM ["Notitiae" Vol. XI (1975) p. 226] explains:
". . .holding hands is a sign of intimacy and not reconciliation, and as such disrupts the flow of the Sacramental signs in the Mass which leads to the Sacramental sign of intimacy with Christ and our neighbor, Holy Communion."
source: Is Your Mass Valid? Liturgical Abuse
What I want to know is what happened to the prayer asking for forgiveness just after the greetings at Mass, how cmoe some parishes still say it and some don't?...
In the penitential rite at the beginning of Mass, one prayer currently includes the line: "... I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do ... ."
The 2004 draft had said: "... I have sinned exceedingly in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault."
The new draft changed "I have sinned exceedingly" to "I have sinned greatly."
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505666.htm
And how many of those you see in Mass still beat their breasts during the ringing of the bell while kneeling. How many bow their heads during the Gloria at "crucified, died and was buried"??
Don't tell me Mass should not change. It is a living celebration. It WILL change.
BTW, unless you understand and speak Latin, you will be hard pressed to attend a "traditional" Catholic Mass.
BTW, St Mary's Bryantown used to be pretty traditional, but I left before Fr. Torciello did. He was dry, but very traditional.
In the penitential rite at the beginning of Mass, one prayer currently includes the line: "... I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do ... ."
The 2004 draft had said: "... I have sinned exceedingly in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault."
The new draft changed "I have sinned exceedingly" to "I have sinned greatly."
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505666.htm
And how many of those you see in Mass still beat their breasts during the ringing of the bell while kneeling. How many bow their heads during the Gloria at "crucified, died and was buried"??
Don't tell me Mass should not change. It is a living celebration. It WILL change.
BTW, unless you understand and speak Latin, you will be hard pressed to attend a "traditional" Catholic Mass.
BTW, St Mary's Bryantown used to be pretty traditional, but I left before Fr. Torciello did. He was dry, but very traditional.