Looking for the Mahdi...

[2ndAmendment]

I think that Hessian is spreading hate, but so are the Muslims that feel they can kill at will. My point was more the general hate of all Muslims that Hessian spouts on a regular basis and stated in this thread as well.

The enlightened comment was more sarcastic, but I just do not understand the one way mentality. I am more than open to a fair discussion about a certain issue, but to just tell me that I am a "liberal wussy", without actually justifying your opinions is not any better in my opinion.

2ndAmendment

Point taken, but I still do not think it is unfair that I disagree with Hessian.

I don't follow Hessian's posts, but in this thread I don't see where he said he hated anyone. You were the first person to use the word hate in this thread. Also no one called you a wussy. You were not called anything by anyone that I can read. Hessian did say something about "liberal waste", but is directed at your ideas, not you personally.

 

[valentino]

And you do not feel it's okay to hate people who want to kill others?

You might want to bone up on your Middle Eastern history - this stuff is nothing new. Muslims have been trying to kill non-Muslims since the beginning of time. Sure, Christians did it to. But the fact remains that eventually Christians stopped doing it and Muslims are still at it.


You need a "fair discussion" to tell you that killing is wrong???????

I never said that it is not okay to hate people who want to kill others, but it seems that there is always a reason. Lots of people cried when school children were killed by fundamentalists in Russia, but nobody talked about why they did it. Their country has been under similar control as the Iraqi people or worse, and Russians were much like Sadaam. Point being that there is always a reason for this anger. The US is way too often getting involved in situations that culturally we just do not understand, but we get involved for other reasons of course.

You are thinking that what you see as my opinion to be my actual opinion and that is just not true. I am well aware that Muslims are known to kill non-Muslims, but Palestinians and Israeli's are known for killing each other as well. Do we really think that we are going to be able to stop a "holy war"? I seriously doubt it, and going in there and killing tens of thousands of Iraqi's many of which were innocent civilians and children only proves to them that we are evil killers. To them, we are the invaders or insurgents, and many wish we had never come to their country, or at least wish that we had gone about things a different way. Fact is that most americans know virtually nothing about the Muslim culture as a whole, and disrespect them just because they are different or do not understand it.

 

[valentino]

I don't follow Hessian's posts, but in this thread I don't see where he said he hated anyone. You were the first person to use the word hate in this thread. Also no one called you a wussy. You were not called anything by anyone that I can read. Hessian did say something about "liberal waste", but is directed at your ideas, not you personally.

"Oh good, now the muslems have something else to get them all whipped up other than bombing Jewish buses or beating themselves bloody in the streets"

This seems to imply that Hessian feels all Muslims are jew killers or self mutilationists for the cause of terror or terrorism???

 

[Hessian]

Your chance to shine Val...

Using your wit & mental powers...tell me about the end game for the middle East and for the USA. When will Islam calm down? When will the peasants in the streets stop rejoicing over American deaths? When will Islamic media present the "Fair & balanced" approach to the news? When will the millions of Coptic Christians, Sudanese, and Iraqi Christians be welcomed home again?
If you can't come up with a time frame...just tell me a method you would use to achieve this.

Carter with Begin & Sadat technique?
Total hand over to the UN?
Total withdrawl from Afghan & Iraq & recognize State of Palestine?
Reparations for the Crusades?

a festival of flowers and love?

I'm curious.

 

[vraiblonde]

You are thinking that what you see as my opinion to be my actual opinion and that is just not true. I am well aware that Muslims are known to kill non-Muslims, but Palestinians and Israeli's are known for killing each other as well. Do we really think that we are going to be able to stop a "holy war"? I seriously doubt it, and going in there and killing tens of thousands of Iraqi's many of which were innocent civilians and children only proves to them that we are evil killers. To them, we are the invaders or insurgents, and many wish we had never come to their country, or at least wish that we had gone about things a different way. Fact is that most americans know virtually nothing about the Muslim culture as a whole, and disrespect them just because they are different or do not understand it.

You are completely and totally effed up in your head.

#1, Iraqi "insurgents" have killed more Iraqis than the US ever dreamed of. READ A DAMN NEWSPAPER!!! They're bombing police stations - filled with Iraqi cops. They're bombing neighborhoods - filled with Iraqi civilians. They're laying down IEDs in civilian areas. THE US DID NOT KILL ALL THOSE IRAQI CIVILIANS - OTHER IRAQIS DID!!!!

#2, Obviously you don't know #### about it. The only Iraqis that are pissed that we're there ARE THE TERRORISTS!!!! You pretend to know what they're thinking - how??? Do you even KNOW any Iraqis??? Are you the Amazing Kreskin???

#3, as far as "Muslim culture" goes, please explain to me how we are to "understand" when those prehistoric scumbags fly planes into OUR BUILDINGS and KILL OUR CITIZENS????? What part of that should we "understand"??????? We have thousands, if not MILLIONS, of Muslims in this country. They're here and doing just fine. They're not declaring jihad like some stupid ass Fred Flintstone wannabe who doesn't have enough sense to not shoot their AK into the air so the schrapnel can take out everyone on the ground.

So YOU, Valentino, are the racist by pretending that killing people is a "culture" of Muslims and that we need to "understand" them.

Move to France - they're big on getting their asses kicked and not retaliating over there.

 

[valentino]

Using your wit & mental powers...tell me about the end game for the middle East and for the USA. When will Islam calm down? When will the peasants in the streets stop rejoicing over American deaths? When will Islamic media present the "Fair & balanced" approach to the news? When will the millions of Coptic Christians, Sudanese, and Iraqi Christians be welcomed home again?
If you can't come up with a time frame...just tell me a method you would use to achieve this.

Carter with Begin & Sadat technique?
Total hand over to the UN?
Total withdrawl from Afghan & Iraq & recognize State of Palestine?
Reparations for the Crusades?

a festival of flowers and love?

I'm curious.

Honestly, I have no idea, I am not an expert in this area by any means, but while they are rejoicing the deaths of americans, we are ignorning that we are in a war that did not have to be fought in this way. I have never felt that Sadaam was a good man, or that true terrorists were sane in any way, I am talking about the average Iraqi citizen who sees the mistreatment of their brothers and sisters as a disgrace. I know that if someone from any country came into my home and tore the place apart taking money and putting me in jail only because I was american and I had a few guns, I might expect to be at least a little upset, and my family should be as well. I agree totally that terrorists should be punished to whatever extent deemed necessary, but does that mean that we treat everyone that looks like a terrorist exactly like the other terrorists that we know about? That kind of thinking will make this quest to end terror a long and deadly process.

I do not totally agree with the UN and some of it processes, but it seems that if we had worked with our allies a little more, and found out the truth about WMD's before sending 1000's of our brothers and sisters to death, this could have been a much cleaner and presicely planned attack on the ideals of an obviously insane man, and volatile country.

 

[valentino]

You are completely and totally effed up in your head.

#1, Iraqi "insurgents" have killed more Iraqis than the US ever dreamed of. READ A DAMN NEWSPAPER!!! They're bombing police stations - filled with Iraqi cops. They're bombing neighborhoods - filled with Iraqi civilians. They're laying down IEDs in civilian areas. THE US DID NOT KILL ALL THOSE IRAQI CIVILIANS - OTHER IRAQIS DID!!!!

#2, Obviously you don't know #### about it. The only Iraqis that are pissed that we're there ARE THE TERRORISTS!!!! You pretend to know what they're thinking - how??? Do you even KNOW any Iraqis??? Are you the Amazing Kreskin???

#3, as far as "Muslim culture" goes, please explain to me how we are to "understand" when those prehistoric scumbags fly planes into OUR BUILDINGS and KILL OUR CITIZENS????? What part of that should we "understand"??????? We have thousands, if not MILLIONS, of Muslims in this country. They're here and doing just fine. They're not declaring jihad like some stupid ass Fred Flintstone wannabe who doesn't have enough sense to not shoot their AK into the air so the schrapnel can take out everyone on the ground.

So YOU, Valentino, are the racist by pretending that killing people is a "culture" of Muslims and that we need to "understand" them.

Move to France - they're big on getting their asses kicked and not retaliating over there.

The Iraqi's that are doing these attacks feel that other Iraqi's are just the same as the americans that they are aligning with, so they feel the need to kill that idea in any way possible. It is a scare tactic, and it seems to have worked in the past with Sadaam, and that is all they know. THere needs to be more education for the people in general, but also Iraqi citizens to help them deal with the overbearing threat of the insurgents. I never said that the insurgents were good people, but we are invading their country, do we expect them to do nothing, and they would not be doing that if it were not for us being there, or at least not to the extreme that they are now. They want us to leave...plain and simple.

I have seen many programs and read a lot about Muslims and the Iraqi people, and yes I do know some Muslims, but no Iraqi's. I do however see many children and women dead or injured, and I doubt all of them were heavily involved in a terrorist organization. We picked up Cat Stevens for being a terrorist, or suspected for some sort of crimimal behavior...that makes sense right...???

I never sad that we should understand the terrorist ideals, I meant that it seems that some people on this board lump all Muslims in with the terrorists...

I am a racist just like George Bush is an A student...

 

[vraiblonde]

The Iraqi's that are doing these attacks feel that other Iraqi's are just the same as the americans that they are aligning with, so they feel the need to kill that idea in any way possible.

Helloooooooo????? Knock knock knock!!! Anybody home?????

 

[valentino]

Helloooooooo????? Knock knock knock!!! Anybody home?????

Could you tell me what you really think? Actually, I already know, I am a moron, and you know everything there is to know about everything there is to know...you win... At least you are more friendly in the pet forum where others do not care about being so belittling.

 

[vraiblonde]

Actually, I already know, I am a moron, and you know everything there is to know about everything there is to know.

Well, if you really thought that, then you wouldn't be a moron, now would you?

What I'm hearing you say (reading you write) is that only the terrorists are REAL Iraqis. The others - all 10 million of them - don't count.

Iraqi citizens are the ones taking back their country from the Saddamites. THEY are the ones learning to be soldiers and policemen so they can control their OWN country. There are a few thousand oldtimers who liked things just the way they were and are trying to terrorize the Iraqis into NOT forming a new government.

You say how the US has killed all these innocent civilians and children - that's simply not true. There are only a handful of innocent deaths that are on the hands of American soldiers. The random bombings that have killed these people have been perpetrated by the Iraqi insurgents. You can say, "Well, they want their country back." But the fact is that there are 10 million OTHER Iraqis that don't WANT them to have it back. And they're tickled pink that the US helped them kick their oppressors out. They intend to have Saddam and his henchmen tried in an Iraqi court and then give him the death penalty.

Read the newspapers! It's in there!

Iraqis seem to understand (better than you) that the sooner they can get their act together, form a government, get a military and police force together, the sooner we'll be outta there. That's why when there's a bombing at an Iraqi police training camp, the next day there's a line a mile long of people signing up to train to help kill these emeffers. We CANNOT leave these people undefended against the terrorists. We just can't.

Iraqis are all over this. What seems to be YOUR problem???

 

[vraiblonde]

At least you are more friendly in the pet forum where others do not care about being so belittling.

Use some common sense and I will not belittle you. Promise.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I do however see many children and women dead or injured, and I doubt all of them were heavily involved in a terrorist organization. We picked up Cat Stevens for being a terrorist, or suspected for some sort of crimimal behavior...that makes sense right...???

You need to quit getting all your news from CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC. They admit to being bias toward the Democratic party. This bias could very well cause them to pick incidents that frame the U.S. presence in a bad light in order to make Bush look bad. The people that I have conversed with that have returned from Iraq tell me that the Iraqis on the street are glad we are there. It is only the radicals that are upset or fighting us and the Iraqis that are trying to put their country back together.

Cat Stevens raised money for terrorist groups. That is called aiding and abetting the enemy and is treason. That makes him an undesirable in the United States.

 

[valentino]

What I'm hearing you say (reading you write) is that only the terrorists are REAL Iraqis. The others - all 10 million of them - don't count.

Iraqi citizens are the ones taking back their country from the Saddamites. THEY are the ones learning to be soldiers and policemen so they can control their OWN country. There are a few thousand oldtimers who liked things just the way they were and are trying to terrorize the Iraqis into NOT forming a new government.

You say how the US has killed all these innocent civilians and children - that's simply not true. There are only a handful of innocent deaths that are on the hands of American soldiers. The random bombings that have killed these people have been perpetrated by the Iraqi insurgents. You can say, "Well, they want their country back." But the fact is that there are 10 million OTHER Iraqis that don't WANT them to have it back. And they're tickled pink that the US helped them kick their oppressors out. They intend to have Saddam and his henchmen tried in an Iraqi court and then give him the death penalty.

Read the newspapers! It's in there!

Iraqis seem to understand (better than you) that the sooner they can get their act together, form a government, get a military and police force together, the sooner we'll be outta there. That's why when there's a bombing at an Iraqi police training camp, the next day there's a line a mile long of people signing up to train to help kill these emeffers. We CANNOT leave these people undefended against the terrorists. We just can't.

Iraqis are all over this. What seems to be YOUR problem???

No, that is not what I meant at all, I apologize if that is what came across. I actually feel like most of the terrorists that are bombing innocent Iraqi's are either not Iraqi's themselves, or who obviously do not have the best interests of the Iraqi people in mind. I know that under Sadaam things were not fair in the least, and that many people are appreciative of what we are trying to do, I just think that we went about it wrong, and were very underprepared for what was happening, and going to happen. There are people there who did not like Sadaam, but also do not want the US to take over the country either, and no matter how much we make it seem like the people of Iraq are in charge, we are still making the governmental choices at this point. That may change in January, but with the ever escalating violence, it is hard to tell right now.

I am not in the least blaming the soldiers for what is happening, they are doing what they are told and what they have to do to survive, the problem is that the situation is many times overwhelming, and they have to use excessive force endangering innocent people. Also, many US soldiers are just completely unaware of the culture and respect issues when it comes to women, and elders, and when home raids are carried out, there is a lot of unintentional disrespect, and in the eyes of some Iraqi's that is a threat and causes them to at least consider retaliation.

There is no question that Sadaam deserves the death penalty, I have no problem with that, although I think suffering slowly would be more appropriate, that might not be possible.

You are right, it is definitely too late, or should I say too early for us to retreat from our duty of helping the Iraqi people rebuild and train for the defense of their country. My main problem is that I feel like we went in being unprepared, and we seem to still have little knowledge of how or when we will be able to completely pull out and send our men and women home. I just find it hard to stomach that all Bush can say is it is hard work...when over a thousand US troops have died after major fighting is said to have ended. The terrorists probably like us being there, we are much closer to their home, and maybe not easier to kill than innocent civilians, but much more convenient.

 

[valentino]

You need to quit getting all your news from CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC. They admit to being bias toward the Democratic party. This bias could very well cause them to pick incidents that frame the U.S. presence in a bad light in order to make Bush look bad. The people that I have conversed with that have returned from Iraq tell me that the Iraqis on the street are glad we are there. It is only the radicals that are upset or fighting us and the Iraqis that are trying to put their country back together.

Cat Stevens raised money for terrorist groups. That is called aiding and abetting the enemy and is treason. That makes him an undesirable in the United States.

I suppose you think that Fox news is fair and balanced then??? I actually listen more to NPR and other talk radio stations, but I think that you are somewhat correct in respect to NBC, but I am unsure of the others. I actually thought CNN was more right wingin' it, but I do not really watch it, so I am not sure. It does make sense that if you do not agree with someone, that even if inadvertently done, you will make them look bad at some point. Kerry makes Bush look bad to some people, and Bush makes Kerry look bad to others...just the way it goes. I prefer it when they talk about real issues instead of just posting labels, but everyone fights as they wish.

I had not heard that Cat Stevens actually had done anything, just that he looked suspicious, post a link if you have one of his actual crimes, I had not read anything about that part of it.

 

[Ken King]

I had not heard that Cat Stevens actually had done anything, just that he looked suspicious, post a link if you have one of his actual crimes, I had not read anything about that part of it.

Yusuf Islam, AKA Cat Stevens, has been accused of donating thousands of dollars to Hamas and that is why he was on the watch list. To my knowledge nothing has been proven.

 

[2ndAmendment]

... I just think that we went about it wrong, and were very underprepared for what was happening, and going to happen. .

... I just find it hard to stomach that all Bush can say is it is hard work...when over a thousand US troops have died after major fighting is said to have ended. The terrorists probably like us being there, we are much closer to their home, and maybe not easier to kill than innocent civilians, but much more convenient.

What we were unprepared for was the collapse of the Iraqi army so quickly. We beat them too fast. The other thing that is missed by most is that the northern front was not executed as planned since Turkey did not allow the coalition to cross its border. There was to have been a pincher movement, but we could not get enough troops into the norther sector. Because of that, many of the Saddam loyalists were able to escape.

Have you ever read any histories of other wars? Often very significant numbers of people are lost in the time after the close of major military action. Any life lost in war is a shame. War is a pity. Young people are naive and often think why can't we all just get along; I was there at one time. As I got older, I realized that greed, control, power are in the human nature. Wars are inevitable. If you look at the last 100 years, the situation is getting worse not better. People are more self centered, greedy (I want what I want and I want it now), and power hungry. Being a Christian and reading the Bible, I know that as we get closer to the last days, it will just get worse.

 

[valentino]

What we were unprepared for was the collapse of the Iraqi army so quickly. We beat them too fast. The other thing that is missed by most is that the northern front was not executed as planned since Turkey did not allow the coalition to cross its border. There was to have been a pincher movement, but we could not get enough troops into the norther sector. Because of that, many of the Saddam loyalists were able to escape.

Have you ever read any histories of other wars? Often very significant numbers of people are lost in the time after the close of major military action. Any life lost in war is a shame. War is a pity. Young people are naive and often think why can't we all just get along; I was there at one time. As I got older, I realized that greed, control, power are in the human nature. Wars are inevitable. If you look at the last 100 years, the situation is getting worse not better. People are more self centered, greedy (I want what I want and I want it now), and power hungry.

I agree it was a suprise to me how quickly we were able to "take over" Iraq, but it seems that for the most part we are still in major combat operations, and they are escalating everyday. The statistics of deaths all around are rising each month, and that is scary. We are supposedly taking hold, and taking out many of the terrorists, but more people are dying, that seems to indicate to me that more people are joining the fight with the terrorists, and we are not increasing our force adequetly. I understand fully the realities of more death and injury after a war is technically over, but that does not mean we have to keep letting it happen. If we had gone in with more troops from the beginning and a better fool proof plan, I think we could be much better off at this point. To me, there has been minimal accomplishments considering the rising death toll, to some that means little, but to me it shows a trend of what is to come.

Being a Christian and reading the Bible, I know that as we get closer to the last days, it will just get worse.

This is your problem not mine...but I agree that things are getting worse.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I agree it was a suprise to me how quickly we were able to "take over" Iraq, but it seems that for the most part we are still in major combat operations, and they are escalating everyday.

It has never been the U.S. position to "take over" Iraq. That is an EU, U.N., Democrat phrase. The only reason you think things are escalating is because of selective reporting by the news organizations. It is not interesting to the public to say, "Everything went well in (20 or 30 operations), but these two were hit by terrorist (insurgent)." So they leave off the good part and only report the sensational.

The statistics of deaths all around are rising each month, and that is scary. We are supposedly taking hold, and taking out many of the terrorists, but more people are dying, that seems to indicate to me that more people are joining the fight with the terrorists, and we are not increasing our force adequetly.

An increase in our force would send the exact wrong message to the Iraqis. It would say we are an occupying force and are taking over. We are trying to stand up the Iraqis to do the majority of the fighting. They aren't as good at it as our forces are, but they are getting better with practice.

I understand fully the realities of more death and injury after a war is technically over, but that does not mean we have to keep letting it happen. If we had gone in with more troops from the beginning and a better fool proof plan, I think we could be much better off at this point. To me, there has been minimal accomplishments considering the rising death toll, to some that means little, but to me it shows a trend of what is to come.

"Letting it happen"? And how would you propose to prevent it from happening. "If we had gone in with more troops from the beginning and a better fool proof plan" Did you read
The other thing that is missed by most is that the northern front was not executed as planned since Turkey did not allow the coalition to cross its border. There was to have been a pincher movement, but we could not get enough troops into the norther sector. The plan was to have more troops on the ground, but the Turks prevented it because of EU (French and German) pressure. "a better fool proof plan" shows your military operation naivete'. The only sure thing about a military operational plan is that it will have to change immediately after hostility starts and after each battle because the situation changes.

 

[Ken King]

I agree it was a suprise to me how quickly we were able to "take over" Iraq, but it seems that for the most part we are still in major combat operations, and they are escalating everyday. The statistics of deaths all around are rising each month, and that is scary. We are supposedly taking hold, and taking out many of the terrorists, but more people are dying, that seems to indicate to me that more people are joining the fight with the terrorists, and we are not increasing our force adequetly. I understand fully the realities of more death and injury after a war is technically over, but that does not mean we have to keep letting it happen. If we had gone in with more troops from the beginning and a better fool proof plan, I think we could be much better off at this point. To me, there has been minimal accomplishments considering the rising death toll, to some that means little, but to me it shows a trend of what is to come.

I for one wouldn’t call it “major combat operations”, more like minor skirmishes and ambush assaults as the insurgents aren’t using heavy duty military equipment, but rest assured it is still combat operations. The insurgents are using small highly mobile squads and impromptu bombs or mines set off with cell phones. They wear no uniform and can mix at will with the populace.

I see the major reason for the rise in casualties is the need of the coalition forces to get in amongst the populace to flush the bad guys out. By doing this it places the troops in great peril as they cannot rely upon the heavily armored mechanized equipment to keep them safe. It’s been street by street and house by house for sometime now and that is the worst arena for any combat forces to have to function in.

I fully believe that our troop strength is where it needs to be or the on-scene commanders would be screaming for more, to my knowledge we aren’t hearing that except from a handful of retirees that think they know what is best. On many of the recent endeavors the US forces have been backing up the new Iraqi forces and as time goes on the Iraqi forces should become more advanced and a larger force where they are doing it all by themselves.

It is easy to sit back and watch what is going on and say that a better plan was needed. In reality to assume one plan is better then another (especially when one of those plans is untested) is ludicrous. We went in strong and had amazing results in the early days when we were fighting a standing army, but now there is no standing army, only a bunch of thugs and criminals, and the tactics to overcome them are more hazardous.

 

[valentino]

It has never been the U.S. position to "take over" Iraq. That is an EU, U.N., Democrat phrase. The only reason you think things are escalating is because of selective reporting by the news organizations. It is not interesting to the public to say, "Everything went well in (20 or 30 operations), but these two were hit by terrorist (insurgent)." So they leave off the good part and only report the sensational.


An increase in our force would send the exact wrong message to the Iraqis. It would say we are an occupying force and are taking over. We are trying to stand up the Iraqis to do the majority of the fighting. They aren't as good at it as our forces are, but they are getting better with practice.


"Letting it happen"? And how would you propose to prevent it from happening. "If we had gone in with more troops from the beginning and a better fool proof plan" Did you read
The other thing that is missed by most is that the northern front was not executed as planned since Turkey did not allow the coalition to cross its border. There was to have been a pincher movement, but we could not get enough troops into the norther sector. The plan was to have more troops on the ground, but the Turks prevented it because of EU (French and German) pressure. "a better fool proof plan" shows your military operation naivete'. The only sure thing about a military operational plan is that it will have to change immediately after hostility starts and after each battle because the situation changes.

I meant take over in more of a metaphorical way, not literal, so I agree with you on that one. I have heard however ramblings from the right about it only took a certain amount of time to "take" Iraq and topple Sadaams regime, so it comes from both sides I am sure. I have heard the good along with the bad, and I never said that there was no good, but the bad hurts more. I have friends and family in the military currently, and I am just concerned for them and their families, as well as all the other innocent victims.

I agree that at this point it could possibly look bad to majorly increase troops and operations in Iraq, I think that I meant it should have been done from the beginning, that way things could have stayed under control, or been kept under control early on.

That is exactly what I am talking about...

the northern front was not executed as planned since Turkey did not allow the coalition to cross its border

and since that was not reassured to be a definite option, we had to fight harder and lose more lives due to a lack of being able to perform the pinch tactic. You are right though, I am no military expert, but I have talked quite a few times with both of my grandfathers about the realities of war, and was once in an organization much like ROTC where I learned a few things about military life in and out of war. Having friends in the military helps me be a little more knowledgeable about things that are going on, but with the current situation they have been away a lot and time to talk has been limited.