Malachi 3:3 "Refining and Purifying Silver"

onel0126

Bead mumbler
Glad you agree that a missionary should broaden his/her horizons, study other cultures and learn other languages. In fact, that's why the Gospel should be published in "227" + dialects! It' far easier to have "the locals" read and easily comprehend pertinent information in their own language than to formally "train" them to learn an entirely new language for a year or so before they can begin to understand what you're trying to tell them.

again, just sayin... :buddies:


I have travelled to 6 of 7 continents. I have been into RCCs on each. Cool thing, the mass is either in Latin, or the local dialect which I don't need to understand to follow along. Got uniformity?
 

Starman3000m

New Member
I have travelled to 6 of 7 continents. I have been into RCCs on each. Cool thing, the mass is either in Latin, or the local dialect which I don't need to understand to follow along. Got uniformity?

OK, but, as you reminded us:

onel0126 said:
Latin still however is the language of the Church.

Need to sign off for now. Have a good weekend. :)
 

Starman3000m

New Member
It is MY Church. Of course not to your second question.

As you know, this is what your "church" teaches about the interpretation of God's Word:

The Magisterium of the Church

85
"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

So, does that mean that PsyOps church (or any Protestant and non-denominational Bible Church) is unable to interpret the Word of God "authentically" ???

Another question: Who actually gave Rome (Vatican) the authority to claim it has the sole ability to authentically interpret the Word of God?
 
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PsyOps

Pixelated
No, we're just defective.

That was a poorly done report. :ohwell:

I routinely try to get from Catholics that they believe they are THE Christian Church and all others are false and thus not truly saved. Although I have been told this from Catholics in the past, the Catholic in this forum either don't believe this is the case or distance themselves from it.
 

Starman3000m

New Member
That was a poorly done report. :ohwell:

I routinely try to get from Catholics that they believe they are THE Christian Church and all others are false and thus not truly saved. Although I have been told this from Catholics in the past, the Catholic in this forum either don't believe this is the case or distance themselves from it.

The answer is pretty clear if the following is a true statement as issued by papal decree: (from archived Internet files - now inactive)
“The leader of the Roman Catholic organization, the pope, has claimed that not only is he the leader of the Roman Catholics but all of Christianity. He also claims that entrance into Heaven is dependant on submission to his authority.”

We declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff. Bull Unum Sanctum, Pope Boniface VIII, 1302.

Update: found the link that spells it out clearly:

UNAM SANCTAM
 
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onel0126

Bead mumbler
That was a poorly done report. :ohwell:

I routinely try to get from Catholics that they believe they are THE Christian Church and all others are false and thus not truly saved.

Perhaps you should try a new hobby. Boring life? Had a very sincere evangelical tell me last night "A church isn't a church unless it has altar calls and full immersion baptism." When I tried the protestant approach and asked for a scriptural verse for each he looked rather perplexed......
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
As you know, this is what your "church" teaches about the interpretation of God's Word:

The Magisterium of the Church

85
"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

So, does that mean that PsyOps church (or any Protestant and non-denominational Bible Church) is unable to interpret the Word of God "authentically" ???

Another question: Who actually gave Rome (Vatican) the authority to claim it has the sole ability to authentically interpret the Word of God?

King of the cut and pastes---are we really re-hashing this again? I asked you before and you didn't answer, what was the literacy rate in 300AD?
 
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onel0126

Bead mumbler
I'm glad you clarified the RCC is not THE Church but YOUR Church and that members of that Church are not the only ones saved.

Thank you.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

Ignatius of Antioch

"Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism [i.e., is a schismatic], he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine [i.e., is a heretic], he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

"We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

"In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace" (Against Heresies 3:24:1 [A.D. 189]).

Clement of Alexandria

"Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the law did the Hebrews" (Miscellanies 1:5 [A.D. 208]).

["If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death" (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).

"Let them not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since the Lord says in the book of Deuteronomy: ‘And any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest or judge, whoever he may be in those days, that man shall die’ [Deut. 17:12]. And then, indeed, they were killed with the sword . . . but now the proud and insolent are killed with the sword of the Spirit, when they are cast out from the Church. For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church" (Letters 61[4]:4 [A.D. 253]).

"Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved except by the one only baptism of the one Church. He says, ‘In the ark of Noah a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Similarly, baptism will in like manner save you" [1 Peter 3:20-21]. In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! In that baptism of the world in which its ancient wickedness was washed away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water. Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark" (ibid., 73[71]:11).

"[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism" (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]).

Lactantius

"It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject" (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).

Jerome

"Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism there is this difference: that heresy involves perverse doctrine, while schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop. Nevertheless, there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church" (Commentary on Titus 3:10–11 [A.D. 386]).

Augustine

"We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church. For heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor" (Faith and the Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]).

"[J]ust as baptism is of no profit to the man who renounces the world in words and not in deeds, so it is of no profit to him who is baptized in heresy or schism; but each of them, when he amends his ways, begins to receive profit from that which before was not profitable, but was yet already in him" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:4[6] [A.D. 400]).

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (ibid., 4:21[28]).

"The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics" (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).

"Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him" (ibid., 141:5).

[
 
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PsyOps

Pixelated
Perhaps you should try a new hobby. Boring life? Had a very sincere evangelical tell me last night "A church isn't a church unless it has altar calls and full immersion baptism." When I tried the protestant approach and asked for a scriptural verse for each he looked rather perplexed......

What the heck is this all about? You just took a civil discussion right into the sewer. Why the personal attack?

I’m simply telling you my experiences with certain Catholics. When I have the opportunity, I ask Catholics what they believe in regard to non-Catholics to see what’s being taught within the RCC. I am critical of Churches that believe MY Church is THE Church and all others are false and not saved. And, if you’ve read many of my past posts you would know I have been critical of protestant churches and their doctrine as well.
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
What the heck is this all about? You just took a civil discussion right into the sewer. Why the personal attack?

I’m simply telling you my experiences with certain Catholics. When I have the opportunity, I ask Catholics what they believe in regard to non-Catholics to see what’s being taught within the RCC. I am critical of Churches that believe MY Church is THE Church and all others are false and not saved. And, if you’ve read many of my past posts you would know I have been critical of protestant churches and their doctrine as well.

Again, as I have stated before.....What your Catholic friend or neighbor tells you what they believe MAY not be what the RCC teaches. There are alot of mis-informed Catholics out there--especially those who were catechiszed in the 60s-80s. If you want to know what is being taught in the RCC talk to a "good" priest. I can recommend one. Unfortunately, if you ask 3 Catholics the same question, you will probably get answers that do not reflect rue Church teachings.
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
Why does the Catholic Church teach that there is "no salvation outside the Church"? Doesn’t this contradict Scripture? God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). Peter proclaimed to the Sanhedrin, "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Since God intends (plans, wills) that every human being should go to heaven, doesn’t the Church’s teaching greatly restrict the scope of God’s redemption? Does the Church mean—as Protestants and (I suspect) many Catholics believe—that only members of the Catholic Church can be saved?

That is what a priest in Boston, Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J., began teaching in the 1940s. His bishop and the Vatican tried to convince him that his interpretation of the Church’s teaching was wrong. He so persisted in his error that he was finally excommunicated, but by God’s mercy, he was reconciled to the Church before he died in 1978.

In correcting Fr. Feeney in 1949, the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) issued a document entitled Suprema Haec Sacra, which stated that " extra ecclesiam, nulla salus" (outside the Church, no salvation) is "an infallible statement." But, it added, "this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church itself understands it."

Note that word dogma. This teaching has been proclaimed by, among others, Pope Pelagius in 585, the Fourth Lateran Council in 1214, Pope Innocent III in 1214, Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, Pope Pius XII, Pope Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Dominus Iesus.

When the Church infallibly teaches extra ecclesiam, nulla salus, it does not say that non-Catholics cannot be saved. In fact, it affirms the contrary. The purpose of the teaching is to tell us how Jesus Christ makes salvation available to all human beings.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Again, as I have stated before.....What your Catholic friend or neighbor tells you what they believe MAY not be what the RCC teaches. There are alot of mis-informed Catholics out there--especially those who were catechiszed in the 60s-80s. If you want to know what is being taught in the RCC talk to a "good" priest. I can recommend one. Unfortunately, if you ask 3 Catholics the same question, you will probably get answers that do not reflect rue Church teachings.

Define what a "good" priest is. How do I find one? If I talk to one here and another somewhere else will I get the same answers to my questions? If I ask that priest what is required to be saved, what will he tell me?

The bottom line for me is, I have found objectionable practices in nearly every church I’ve been to. I’m not picking on the Catholic Church. After attending several churches over my years I’ve decided to get away from all the ritual, dogma, and pompousness. I aim to get back to the basics of Christ. I find nothing that requires I cross myself, or kneel to a statue or alter, kiss a ring, speak in a tongue, or flail my arms around… I remember doing a study on the Passover and how God set some very simple rules for doing no work during that time. When Jews got hold of it, those rules expanded into thousands of pages of rules that had nothing to do with God’s original intent; and violating those rules resulted in severe consequences. The Temples of the day of Christ had gotten so mired in their rituals, rules, and dogma that they forgot the fundamental tenets God set before His people. I feel our Churches today have found their way back to these ignorant practices and thinking. Jesus condemned the leaders of their faith for getting away from the basic ideals Jesus articulate in Matthew 23:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.” – verse 23

This looks like our Churches today to me.
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
Define what a "good" priest is. How do I find one? If I talk to one here and another somewhere else will I get the same answers to my questions? If I ask that priest what is required to be saved, what will he tell me?

The bottom line for me is, I have found objectionable practices in nearly every church I’ve been to. I’m not picking on the Catholic Church. After attending several churches over my years I’ve decided to get away from all the ritual, dogma, and pompousness. I aim to get back to the basics of Christ. I find nothing that requires I cross myself, or kneel to a statue or alter, kiss a ring, speak in a tongue, or flail my arms around… I remember doing a study on the Passover and how God set some very simple rules for doing no work during that time. When Jews got hold of it, those rules expanded into thousands of pages of rules that had nothing to do with God’s original intent; and violating those rules resulted in severe consequences. The Temples of the day of Christ had gotten so mired in their rituals, rules, and dogma that they forgot the fundamental tenets God set before His people. I feel our Churches today have found their way back to these ignorant practices and thinking. Jesus condemned the leaders of their faith for getting away from the basic ideals Jesus articulate in Matthew 23:



This looks like our Churches today to me.


I understand your frustration; really. Most of the things in the Catholic Mass have their roots to within a hundred years of Christ's death. See video below of Justin the Martyr's letter to the Roman emperor in 155.

YouTube - The Catholic Mass in 155 A.D.

If you are serious about talking to a good priest for answers (not to convert you), PM me. I am a revert--having been away from religion for 20 years of my life. I found myself sitting in a Catholic Church one day in a pew during a particularly hard time in my life several years ago. For all of the bells and smells and rituals you and others speak of, I found that EVERY one of them along with the often attacked windows, icons, and art, etc. all focus one back to Christ. The biggest complaints I hear from my Protestant friends about the RCC (other than dogma) is that they don't feel welcome by the fellow worshipers. I simply tell them that worship, in this case Mass, is NOT about you, its about HIM! If you want to watch powerpoint presentations, sing praise music, have people compliment your new suit and car, and the like I can recommend some place too.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
If you are serious about talking to a good priest for answers (not to convert you), PM me. I am a revert--having been away from religion for 20 years of my life. I found myself sitting in a Catholic Church one day in a pew during a particularly hard time in my life several years ago. For all of the bells and smells and rituals you and others speak of, I found that EVERY one of them along with the often attacked windows, icons, and art, etc. all focus one back to Christ. The biggest complaints I hear from my Protestant friends about the RCC (other than dogma) is that they don't feel welcome by the fellow worshipers. I simply tell them that worship, in this case Mass, is NOT about you, its about HIM! If you want to watch powerpoint presentations, sing praise music, have people compliment your new suit and car, and the like I can recommend some place too.

When I attended a Catholic Church a few times the first impressions I got was: what’s all the ritual about? Crossing yourself, kneeling, standing, kneeling, sitting, standing, kneeling, standing, kneeling, etc… Echoing and answering to things the priest says. All of the statues… The one thing that bothered me more than almost anything was calling your priest “Father”. Jesus said “And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.” (Matthew 23:9). It almost seems a purposeful defiance of Jesus’ command, for reasons I still can’t fathom.

I don’t understand other churches that practice in speaking in tongues. I’ve not heard once anyone speak in tongues that were of an actual language. And it states in the bible that when someone speaks in tongues someone must be there to interpret it. Proving you have the Holy Spirit because you can handle poisonous snakes? Using religion to promote your politics? I could go on and on…

The Church (that is the entire body of Christ; all Churches), in my opinion, has lost its way. They have let ritual, idols, names, exclusivity, politics, and money come first. This goes back to Matthew 23; Jesus warned the rulers of the church of the day that they have strayed and are leading the people astray. The parallels to today’s church is astounding to me.
 

Starman3000m

New Member
King of the cut and pastes---are we really re-hashing this again? I asked you before and you didn't answer, what was the literacy rate in 300AD?

Actually, the "literacy rate" has nothing to do with spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Good News is also spread by vocally telling others so that they hear the word of God and then the Spirit of God opens the person's understanding in their spirit to know that the words spoken are Truth. Receiving the Truth is when the heart is opened to the Truth of God whether it is by a person reading about Jesus or hearing about Jesus. The Holy Bible declares that it is the Holy Spirit that reveals truth - sometimes it's through the writing and sometimes it is through hearing and sometimes through signs that prove the existence of God and Truth of Christ.

The RCC was able to control "illiterate" people by saying that it was preaching the complete truth and then the people were expected to believe everything presented as "truth." The Protestant Reformation brought about the challenges that showed how much in error the Vatican and "papal authority" had been "conducting business" and how much in error Rome was to declare that it was the "only" true church on this earth.
 

Bavarian

New Member
Define what a "good" priest is. How do I find one? If I talk to one here and another somewhere else will I get the same answers to my questions? If I ask that priest what is required to be saved, what will he tell me?

The bottom line for me is, I have found objectionable practices in nearly every church I’ve been to. I’m not picking on the Catholic Church. After attending several churches over my years I’ve decided to get away from all the ritual, dogma, and pompousness. I aim to get back to the basics of Christ. I find nothing that requires I cross myself, or kneel to a statue or alter, kiss a ring, speak in a tongue, or flail my arms around… I remember doing a study on the Passover and how God set some very simple rules for doing no work during that time. When Jews got hold of it, those rules expanded into thousands of pages of rules that had nothing to do with God’s original intent; and violating those rules resulted in severe consequences. The Temples of the day of Christ had gotten so mired in their rituals, rules, and dogma that they forgot the fundamental tenets God set before His people. I feel our Churches today have found their way back to these ignorant practices and thinking. Jesus condemned the leaders of their faith for getting away from the basic ideals Jesus articulate in Matthew 23:



This looks like our Churches today to me.

Find an older priest pre VII!
 
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