Malachi 3:3 "Refining and Purifying Silver"

Bavarian

New Member
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism).

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God.

However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

Ignatius of Antioch

"Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism [i.e., is a schismatic], he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine [i.e., is a heretic], he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

"We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

"In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace" (Against Heresies 3:24:1 [A.D. 189]).

Clement of Alexandria

"Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the law did the Hebrews" (Miscellanies 1:5 [A.D. 208]).

["If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death" (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).

"Let them not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since the Lord says in the book of Deuteronomy: ‘And any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest or judge, whoever he may be in those days, that man shall die’ [Deut. 17:12]. And then, indeed, they were killed with the sword . . . but now the proud and insolent are killed with the sword of the Spirit, when they are cast out from the Church. For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church" (Letters 61[4]:4 [A.D. 253]).

"Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved except by the one only baptism of the one Church. He says, ‘In the ark of Noah a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Similarly, baptism will in like manner save you" [1 Peter 3:20-21]. In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! In that baptism of the world in which its ancient wickedness was washed away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water. Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark" (ibid., 73[71]:11).

"[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism" (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]).

Lactantius

"It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject" (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).

Jerome

"Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism there is this difference: that heresy involves perverse doctrine, while schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop. Nevertheless, there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church" (Commentary on Titus 3:10–11 [A.D. 386]).

Augustine

"We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church. For heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor" (Faith and the Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]).

"[J]ust as baptism is of no profit to the man who renounces the world in words and not in deeds, so it is of no profit to him who is baptized in heresy or schism; but each of them, when he amends his ways, begins to receive profit from that which before was not profitable, but was yet already in him" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:4[6] [A.D. 400]).

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (ibid., 4:21[28]).

"The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics" (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).

"Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him" (ibid., 141:5).

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Great job! I will keep this the next time one of these heretics comes after me. I pray for them that they will see the Truth before it is too late.
Happy Advent
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780).

Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story...

I had to cut most of your post because it was too long...

This is a nice read but I cry foul on one front... These words (except where you posted quotes), in its entirety, are not your own words. You should have at least sourced your info instead of making it look like your own words.

Salvation outside the Church

Nevertheless, these are words outside the Holy Bible where Jesus simply stated:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16

It doesn't say "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him, and is a memeber of the Catholic Church, shall not perish but have eternal life."

It doesn't even say "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him, and is a member of any Christian Church, shall not perish but have eternal life."

There is no requirement to belong to any Church. He did say that he would build his Church upon the Rock that is Peter. This Church are His believers; not members of some elite group called Catholics, or Baptists, or Methodists. As I view our Christian society believers of all Churches are parts of the Body of Christ, each having it's own job to do.

Only God knows each heart and whether they are actually believers. Conveying the message that if you are a member of a certain Church will gain you salvation is decptive and false. And if this is what you believe then you better go back and read Matthew 23 very carefully because that passage is speaking to you.

Believe in Christ, and humble yourself before God and certainly you are saved. THAT'S all that is required.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Great job! I will keep this the next time one of these heretics comes after me. I pray for them that they will see the Truth before it is too late.
Happy Advent

And you wonder why people do come after you AND the Catholic Church. Don't you even realize that this is the same mentality that Jesus vilified when he said:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." - Matthew 23:13

I am a Christian! I am not defined by you or your Church. You have judged me; against the command of God who demands we not judge each other. You have decided, in your own mind, I am not saved. You have allowed your religious dogma to deceive you into believing you are in a position to judge who is saved who is not. This very arrogance is why people "come after you".
 

Bavarian

New Member
Christ said that unless you eat my Body and drink my Blood you can not enter the Kingdom of God. The only way one can eat the Body and Blood of Christ is at a Church with a valid priesthood. The Catholic Church both Latin and Eastern rite have a valid priesthood, hence outside the Church, no Salvation. But as was stated, one can overcome this with Baptism or Blood of Desire.

Just came back from 70 day cruise in Asia and Australia. Many pagan temples to Shinto and Budda. I prayed that they will see the light when we visited them. What really bothered me was the people from our ship offering prayers to these false gods. I thought, do they not know what they are doing?

I guess God will settle all this in the next life, I hope I get to see Him sometime, either at the hour of death or after time in Purgatory where my imperfections will be "burned off". At least if I am in Purgatory, I will know that I will reach Heaven eventually.

And for the puzzled look about good priest, I meant on not tarnished by Vatican II, or VII as we Traditional Catholics refer to that mess.
 
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toppick08

Guest
Where in the Bible does it say we should pray to/for the dead ?....just a question, not trying to start a war. I'm a misguided Methodist, so bear with me..:lol:
 

Bavarian

New Member
Where in the Bible does it say we should pray to/for the dead ?....just a question, not trying to start a war. I'm a misguided Methodist, so bear with me..:lol:

I will leave chapter/verse to more bible knowledable readers, but I do recall Christ saying that one sin can not be forgiven in this world or the next, if so, then other sins can be forgiven in the next world.

Some where I remember "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead so that they may be loosed from their sins"

If you need some help, do you not ask for others to pray for you or a loved one?
 
T

toppick08

Guest
I will leave chapter/verse to more bible knowledable readers, but I do recall Christ saying that one sin can not be forgiven in this world or the next, if so, then other sins can be forgiven in the next world.

Some where I remember "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead so that they may be loosed from their sins"

If you need some help, do you not ask for others to pray for you or a loved one?

Ty...and yes.

“Do all the good you can,
By all the means you can,
In all the ways you can,
In all the places you can,
At all the times you can,
To all the people you can,
As long as ever you can.”
John Wesley quote
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Christ said that unless you eat my Body and drink my Blood you can not enter the Kingdom of God. The only way one can eat the Body and Blood of Christ is at a Church with a valid priesthood. The Catholic Church both Latin and Eastern rite have a valid priesthood, hence outside the Church, no Salvation. But as was stated, one can overcome this with Baptism or Blood of Desire.

I know where it says “unless you eat My flesh…” but where does the Bible say the only way this can be done is with a valid priesthood and that this valid priesthood is the Catholic Church?

This is another thing that is out of sync with God’s Word. If you read John 6 Jesus makes it clear that this eating and drinking is a spiritual thing not an actual act of eating and drinking:

Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” - John 6:61-64

The flesh and blood are God’s Word and our consuming it to receive God’s spirit. This is the indication that we are saved. Some people have come to believe, because of false doctrine, that as long you just take communion or get baptized you are saved and can run about your life as usual. This is a shame.

And for the puzzled look about good priest, I meant on not tarnished by Vatican II, or VII as we Traditional Catholics refer to that mess.

Hmmm… Strife within THE Church. Makes it really hard to know which are REAL priests and not. This is exactly why Churches, as huge establishments, have become targets of distrust.
 

Starman3000m

New Member
I will leave chapter/verse to more bible knowledable readers, but I do recall Christ saying that one sin can not be forgiven in this world or the next, if so, then other sins can be forgiven in the next world.

Um... Christ did not say that sins would be forgiven in the "next world". All sins are forgiven in the here and now through His Atoning Blood except for the one sin "the unforgiveable sin" and that is when a living person blasphemes the Holy Spirit of God. That person is in danger of eternal damnation. In scriptural context, that unforgiveable sin was where the religious leaders were saying that Christ was performing His miracles under the power of Satan - they did not believe that God's Holy Spirit was the power that was within Jesus. Note that Jesus stated that people could even blaspheme "the Son" and it would still be forgiven BUT to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is Unforgiveable in this world and in the world to come (after the Great White Throne Judgment: Rev. 20:11-15) which will then be the heavenly world established by God where saved people will be.

Now, let's see the true contextual meaning of what you have paraphrased. Here are three areas in scripture where it is addressed.

In the Holy Bible, Jesus proclaimed the following:

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
(Mark 3:28-30)

and;

Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. (Luke 12:8-10)

There is no second chance to get things right with God and there is no cleansing in a place called "purgatory" God's Cleansing takes effect in the here and now when a person repents, gives their life to the Lord, and is cleansed by the Blood of The Lamb through faith in Christ's Redemption.

Now is the day of Salvation while you're alive:

For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Corinthians 6:2)
 
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2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Christ said that unless you eat my Body and drink my Blood you can not enter the Kingdom of God. The only way one can eat the Body and Blood of Christ is at a Church with a valid priesthood. The Catholic Church both Latin and Eastern rite have a valid priesthood, hence outside the Church, no Salvation. But as was stated, one can overcome this with Baptism or Blood of Desire.

Just came back from 70 day cruise in Asia and Australia. Many pagan temples to Shinto and Budda. I prayed that they will see the light when we visited them. What really bothered me was the people from our ship offering prayers to these false gods. I thought, do they not know what they are doing?

I guess God will settle all this in the next life, I hope I get to see Him sometime, either at the hour of death or after time in Purgatory where my imperfections will be "burned off". At least if I am in Purgatory, I will know that I will reach Heaven eventually.

And for the puzzled look about good priest, I meant on not tarnished by Vatican II, or VII as we Traditional Catholics refer to that mess.

I will leave chapter/verse to more bible knowledable readers, but I do recall Christ saying that one sin can not be forgiven in this world or the next, if so, then other sins can be forgiven in the next world.

Some where I remember "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead so that they may be loosed from their sins"

If you need some help, do you not ask for others to pray for you or a loved one?

Before "quoting" scripture it is a good idea to actually quote the scripture. The last supper is where Jesus said:
Matthew 26:26-29

26While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."

27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;

28for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

29"But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
Mark 14:22-25

22While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is My body."

23And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it.

24And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

25"Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."
Luke 22:14-20

14When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him.

15And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;

16for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."

17And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves;

18for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."

19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

That is every instance of the Lord's Supper which you misquoted. Nowhere is there the phrase or even the idea that
Christ said that unless you eat my Body and drink my Blood you can not enter the Kingdom of God.

You will not find the concept of purgatory in the Bible either, but that is yours to solve. But the misquote of scripture is to be avoided just like praying to false gods.
 

kingpl2

New Member
Publish or proclaim? NO publish and proclaim

Glad you agree that a missionary should broaden his/her horizons, study other cultures and learn other languages. In fact, that's why the Gospel should be published in "227" + dialects! It's far easier to have "the locals" read and easily comprehend pertinent information in their own language than to formally "train" them to learn an entirely new language for a year or so before they can begin to understand what you're trying to tell them.

again, just sayin... :buddies:

Good idea. Not the best idea. I believe Jesus had the best idea. He could have written down anything for future generations, he could have established a library of scripture and iso and exegisis. He did not. He chose to establish a church yes one church. That one church spoke whatever language they neede toin the different parts of the world they went to. Hebrew greek indian etc. "Faith comes by hearing" it could read "Faith comes by reading" - that is not what it says. both are good but Jesus established that his church be one to preach and teach not only to translate and write. It is about "formation" as other Christ's (properly understood) not just information about Christ.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
I will leave chapter/verse to more bible knowledable readers, but I do recall Christ saying that one sin can not be forgiven in this world or the next, if so, then other sins can be forgiven in the next world.

Some where I remember "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead so that they may be loosed from their sins"

If you need some help, do you not ask for others to pray for you or a loved one?

I’ve mulled over what you’ve written here and debated with myself whether I should reply. I really write this with no disrespect but I see this as being a big part of the problem I am finding with so many believers. Folks rely on the words of others and not validate those words against the Bible. You were impressed with onel0126’s long post of non-Biblical quotes yet admit that you are not very well-versed in the Bible yourself. How can you claim the validity in these quotes if you haven’t bounced it up against our Standard: the Bible?

The challenge for you is to find anywhere in the Bible where it says we should pray for the dead. This is the challenge for all of us. If you go to church and the preacher says something that doesn't jive, do you just sit there and nod and take what he says as "gospel", or do you whip out your Bible and challenge them? This is what Jesus did. The leaders of the Temples were leading the people astray with their own doctrine that was outside of God’s word. Jesus corrected them. And He expects us to do the same. If you can’t find it, wouldn’t it be biblically and spiritually correct to deem that quote as false? Isn’t everything we claim about God and our walk with Him supposed to be in accordance with the Bible?

Are you going to just take others' words for truth and not learn the truth yourself? Isn't our responsibility as Christians to learn the Bible so we can know when we are being deceived?
 
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