Mary had a little lamb..........

[Midnightrider]

so, how come school prayer didnt stop right after the constitution,, what with that separation thing and all, you would think that the founding fathers would have put a stop to that foolish behaviour right away.

I guess the same reason that it took so long for the US to end slavery and then adopt a stance that helped to ensure equal rights, even after all that "all men are created equal" stuff. So now are you going to tell me that we have it wrong as a country when we apply this men (and women) of all races be they landowners or not.

Also, it only became a constituional issue when federal funds began flowing to the states for education. Before that there was no fed-school relationship. Now that the fed sets certain criteria for doling out the funds, it has a responsibility to ensure that fed funds are not being used for unconstitutional purposes.
BTW, i dont think fed $$ should go towards abortions or paintings of religious figures covered in feces either.

 

[Midnightrider]

Yes we do have a freedom of religion, not a freedom from religion. Its really a different thing totally



/

only in the mind of someone who wants to bestow their religion on everyone. the rest of us we see it as the exact same thing.

Remember, the people who started this country were predominately christian, and they were escaping religious persecution at the hands of who? thats right, other christians.
So i am pretty sure that the religious freedom they were looking for was total freedom, not some quasi freedom where acceptable forms or worship were determined by the zealotry or the gov

 

[Hessian]

I'll Bite...

If our Founders had a diverse collection of beliefs about God...
Find some quotes of theirs...
Praising Allah...
Pondering Shintoism...
Waying the insights of Zoarastrianism

You enjoy Freedom of religion, bestowed on this nation by CHRISTIAN, JEHOVAH-worshipping founders. They followed NO other god/or mysticism.

If they didn't we would have ended up like France, destroying churches, putting harlots up on the communion tables and trying to re-write the calendar, while butchering our richest citizens.
Thank GOD we did not go that way.

NOW, I have cited one small private letter supporting Washington as a devout believer: Please make a strong case that he was a Diest: coming from HIS words, not some hippy scholar of the 1960's.

 

[Midnightrider]

If our Founders had a diverse collection of beliefs about God...
Find some quotes of theirs...
Praising Allah...
Pondering Shintoism...
Waying the insights of Zoarastrianism

You enjoy Freedom of religion, bestowed on this nation by CHRISTIAN, JEHOVAH-worshipping founders. They followed NO other god/or mysticism.

Well here is one plainly stating that the no matter what washingtons religion was, he was in favor of complete religious freedom:

"Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."
-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 495, quoted from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

And another:

"I had always hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable Asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong."
-- George Washington, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, a Mennonite minister, May 28, 1788

 

[Hessian]

"John Adams - "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

I was curious,...and looked this up:
This is the original page where this was pulled: IN HIS HANDWRITING:

John Adams - "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

WHat is the next line?
HMMM?
http://www.eadshome.com/FoundersQuotesoutofContext.htm
Once again, those who wish to distort the past have no stomach to read carefully.

Want me to keep finding the distortion in your quotes?

 

[Hessian]

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Washington
If it can be esteemed a happiness to live in an age productive of great and interesting events, we of the present age are very highly favored. The rapidity of national revolutions appear no less astonishing, than their magnitude. In what they will terminate, is known only to the great ruler of events; and confiding in his wisdom and goodness, we may safely trust the issue to him, without perplexing ourselves to seek for that, which is beyond human ken; only taking care to perform the parts assigned us, in a way that reason and our own consciences approve of.

The surest moral guidance Washington saw was "reason and our own consciences."


Do you understand this quote or do you need it explained?
This is a remarkable endorsement of "the great ruler of events"..to whom Washington TRUSTS, and realizing that we have a duty to to manage the affairs that HE entrusted to us to handle.
Moral guidance DOES NOT COME from reason & conscience, it comes from His wisdom.

 

[Midnightrider]

"John Adams - "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

I was curious,...and looked this up:
This is the original page where this was pulled: IN HIS HANDWRITING:

John Adams - "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

WHat is the next line?
HMMM?
http://www.eadshome.com/FoundersQuotesoutofContext.htm
Once again, those who wish to distort the past have no stomach to read carefully.

Want me to keep finding the distortion in your quotes?

While you may be right that the quote is out of context, that doesn't mean that Adams was a proponent of forced christianity, or even government involvement in religion.

from your link:

" John Adams believed that government should never impose a denomination/particular religion upon the people. And in his frustration he said that he almost wished there to be no religion, but this of course was not his true wish. His true wish was for peace between denominations and lack of governmental pressure to adhere to a certain denomination"

 

[2ndAmendment]

Those in this thread seem to be screaming that Christians want the government to be Christian. While I may think this would be ideal, I look back on history and find that one of our Presidents, Jimmy Carter, was a Christian, or I believe so, and still one of the worst Presidents in history.

I don't want the federal government to be able to force anyone to any religion. Doesn't work anyway. Christianity is based on the free will acceptance of God's plan of salvation. It cannot be forced.

Conversely, I do not want government excluding religion by force which is where we are now. The federal courts are imposing freedom FROM religion. That is equally wrong as forcing someone to accept allah or be beheaded. I will not be tolerant of other gods because to do so would be to deny God His rightful place, but as a citizen of the U.S., I find that excluding prayer and religious, mostly Christian, symbols from government is a violation of a citizens inalienable rights under the First Amendment to "freely exercise" their religion. Being able to "freely exercise" means even if I am a judge, I can have a plaque of the Ten Commandments in my office. To deny my ability to pray in my office, wear a crucifix, have a Bible, or any religious article or symbol I choose in my office, even if it is a government office, denies the right to "freely exercise" my religion. This should extend to Muslims and Hindus and the like. If someone comes into my office, they are in my domain and have no right to tell me I cannot freely exercise my religion by having religious articles in open display.

 

[Hessian]

Nucklesack

I'll try to do this as simply as I can...

GW: "we may safely trust the issue to him..."
Nucklesack: "Washington may or not have Trusted God"

what part of this was confusing to you...perhaps when you blurted out "trilogy"...when you tried to find the word "Trinity?"
Or how about the confused comments regarding the burning bush (Why would GW discuss this in this excerpt????)
Are you saying that GW mocked & doubted the veracity of scripture and the Miracles were a bunch of mythology and Hokum?...If this is his belief.....
FIND THE QUOTE.
If you can't find the quote,...quit making it up.

I will save you the time: GW beleived in the validity of scripture, redemption through Christ, the moral teachings & history found within.

If you can find GW denouncing any of those beliefs,...and not pull it out of context: I would be humbly impressed.

If you can't...We can start over with the John Adams confusion and yes, I accept the apology for you taking that quote of his out of context.
Midnight is in agreement here: NO forced denominations for John Adams...but, a deeply personal belief in Christianity and scripture (He just couldn't tolerate Catholic rituals, nor the denominational bickering)

 

[bcp]

Just don't put yourself in denial and ignore good science because your beliefs disagree with the facts.

Ignore good science?
not a chance. Science has increased our average life span, science has made our lives better, has brought us into space and given new products. Im typing on scientific discovery.

I look at science in the creation arena such as this.

suppose, I dropped a car from today into the world some 300 years ago.
the people might look at that car as a wonderous thing. It certainly must have been created by God, or at least someone more intellegent that they were.
The scientists would begin to take it apart, piece by piece trying to understand how it worked, and ultimatley where it came from.
Over time, they might understand the basic principals of the car, but they would have problems with how were the materials used created? how did all of these different parts just happen to come together to create such a machine?

scientists today are taking apart Gods work, one piece at a time. And their discoveries, and their findings are true and correct. And they are starting to understand the realationship between newtrons, atoms etc...
yes, they are discovering slowley how God put this universe together.
and at the same time they are learning how to manipulate, and reproduce certain aspects of it.

science is wonderful, one day science in its own course will discover that there is in fact a God that created all of heaven and Earth, and they will know how he did it.
In the meantime, it just makes our lifes better.

just like 300 years ago they might have taken that car and discovered that compressing then expanding certain gasses over and over could cool their huts.

 

[Hessian]

OK...I did my homework...

Nucklesack, I tried to save you some time but you just want to keep digging your hole deeper. (2nd A is right...)

I will now expect you to find quotes by Washington or his associates that embrace the Deist ideas:
groundrules:
Deists believe in ...
the clock-watcher god.
The original creator but not sustainer of life.
No miracles,
No resurrection,
No Eternal life as described by Scripture,
and the fallibility of scripture,...a collection or morals and interesting mythological stories.

FIND WHERE GW embraced these concepts...
Date & ID each document like I did with the letter to his Brother in Law.

NO quoting of long-haired dope smoking liberal "academics" from the 1960's.

 

[Midnightrider]

Midnight is in agreement here: NO forced denominations for John Adams...but, a deeply personal belief in Christianity and scripture (He just couldn't tolerate Catholic rituals, nor the denominational bickering)

you need to make sure you read carefully, becasue you are missing the larger point of my statement: that the site you chose to refute nuckle's argument actually contradicts yours.
You conviently left out two words from the quote i pulled from the website you posted. Can you guess which ones?
"denomination/particular religion upon the people"

 

[Hessian]

Omission?

What two words?...I am curious.

Adams had established two characters bickering and in exasperation states a frustrated wish that he knows is an absolute disaster.
His tenet is not to have denominational squabbling and that the govt would not endorse one denomination's catechism over another. The point is total ridiculous when it was written (1817)...both men in retirement and musing over past issues.
During Monroe's term,...there was NO attempt by the govt to endorse or disqualify any particular denomination.

 

[Midnightrider]

What two words?...I am curious.

from your link:

" John Adams believed that government should never impose a denomination/particular religion upon the people. And in his frustration he said that he almost wished there to be no religion, but this of course was not his true wish. His true wish was for peace between denominations and lack of governmental pressure to adhere to a certain denomination"


the "particular religion" part is the important piece that left out. Probably becasue it doesn't fit with your argument that this was only a discussion about denominations of chirstianity. Your very own source clearly indicates this was about religions in general as well as denominations within christianity.
Its funny that you missed it even though it was quoted in my post.

 

[wxtornado]

suppose, I dropped a car from today into the world some 300 years ago.
the people might look at that car as a wonderous thing. It certainly must have been created by God, or at least someone more intellegent that they were.
The scientists would begin to take it apart, piece by piece trying to understand how it worked, and ultimatley where it came from.

This is ridiculous. In order to believe it "came from God", one must already believe God exists. This is a circular argument.

Over time, they might understand the basic principals of the car, but they would have problems with how were the materials used created? how did all of these different parts just happen to come together to create such a machine?

This part of your argument is moot because it's a strawman. Evolution doesn't suggest that parts "just happened to come together". I think you're getting lost in analogy land.

scientists today are taking apart Gods work

Says you. I say they are studying nature. Feel free to prove me wrong.

one piece at a time. And their discoveries, and their findings are true and correct. And they are starting to understand the realationship between newtrons, atoms etc...
yes, they are discovering slowley how God put this universe together.
and at the same time they are learning how to manipulate, and reproduce certain aspects of it.

All you're saying here is "God did it because I say he did". Well, you are of course free to believe that. But that's not the way logic and reasoning work.

 

[Gwydion]

Wow, since leavign this thread, it has gone in so many loops its incredible.

My 2 cents.
There should be no designated prayer time in school. If for no other reason besides the religion/government issue, then because that is time that could be used for EDUCATING the kids. Which is the point of school. If you alot 5 minutes per school day to pray, you have taken 17.25 hours out of there education per year. In 17.25 hours, you can teach a 1st grader to count to 20 and learn the abc's. You could teach a 3rd grader how to write the entire alphabet in cursive and division.

I do, however support cultural awareness. I have no problem with a teacher explaining the different religions of the world to kids. As long as its not, "ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD, christians will be accepted into heaven with open arms." I feel like a "religion" week would be good for say, 5th graders. I.e. learn the names, major books, some of the key figures, the contries where the major religions are located, etc.

 

[brendar buhl]

Your gonna catch heat for that, even if your view is a more common sense approach

Hope not, I know many Christian teachers in the public school system who wish that they didn't have to devote so much time to the whole, "What are we going to do for the winter holiday season?" question. All of that time could be spent teaching kids (you know-not leaving them behind). They will figure out the Holidays at home.

 

[Gwydion]

Following up on my previous post...If YOUR child wishes to pray in school, then by all means let them. Whether it be to god, Allah, Zeus, I don't care. There was a table in my middle school and high school where the religous kids sat and before lunch they would hold hands and pray. Nobody disrupted them, it was recpectful. I also had a friend who, in between 2 of his classes would step outside to the courtyard, roll out his mat and pray to Allah. Once again, nobody disrupted him. THAT is the way prayer in school should be held. Feel free to request your child to pray before eating, or whenever they feel like it.

Sure, there are people who will make fun of them (I'm not an idiot, I know the mindset of teenagers...my friend was called a terrorist many a times) but prayer is a personal thing. It is for you to do to speak with god(s), and you have every right to do that...just don't make my kid dumber because of it.