May 1st - better credit? Pay more.

Monello

Smarter than the average bear
PREMO Member
Back when I was a young adult struggling financially, where were all these programs to help people out?

Actually, I'm not complaining. Somehow I persevered and got to a sort of comfortable position in life. But it does appear that there are a ton of government provided benefits now that would have been beneficial decades ago for someone like me. So how come with more programs, people still seem incapable of getting ahead. Not all people, but a good majority of them.

And while it might not happen this decade, watch the government go after the accumulated value in people's personal 401Ks. It will most likely be in the form of a bill sponsored by Sanders & Warren.
 

BOP

Well-Known Member
Back when I was a young adult struggling financially, where were all these programs to help people out?

Actually, I'm not complaining. Somehow I persevered and got to a sort of comfortable position in life. But it does appear that there are a ton of government provided benefits now that would have been beneficial decades ago for someone like me. So how come with more programs, people still seem incapable of getting ahead. Not all people, but a good majority of them.

And while it might not happen this decade, watch the government go after the accumulated value in people's personal 401Ks. It will most likely be in the form of a bill sponsored by Sanders & Warren.
Demonrats: they never saw a dollar they didn't think belonged to them.
 

OccamsRazor

Well-Known Member
So how come with more programs, people still seem incapable of getting ahead. Not all people, but a good majority of them.
Simple. Because it is always up to the INDIVIDUAL to take responsibility. Providing these programs only gives crack to the addict. If these people were of sound financial judgement (to maintain payments on their new home) then they wouldn't need the help in the first place.
Its akin to the whole "get rid of assault weapon" cries. You can remove them BUT, its not going to stop the irresponsible and or mentally challenged from finding another way to harm people (or themselves)
 

BOP

Well-Known Member
The rate changes aren't supposed to ensure that higher risk borrowers make their payments. The rate changes are supposed to shift the costs of insuring mortgages such that people with lower risk mortgages pay more (than they otherwise would have) and people with higher risk mortgages pay less (than they otherwise would have).

It's conceptually comparable to raising the auto insurance premiums of 40 year olds with no accidents from $1,000 a year to $1,100 a year so that you can lower the auto insurance premiums of 18 year olds with 3 accidents from $4,000 a year to $3,000 a year. Ostensibly both groups will, respectively, create roughly the same amount of claim liability as before. And the total premiums collected will, ostensibly, remain roughly the same. But the first group now bears a larger relative share of the insurance cost. If the premiums were fairly set before - i.e., they accurately reflected the risks of the respective groups - then the changes amount to forcing the former group to subsidize insurance costs for the latter group.
The left likes to play fast and loose with statistics, and specifically, when it comes to averages. You know, like when it comes to the wage gap, for example.

Still, at other times, those same leftists generalize to "all men," "all whites," and so on, when it suits their purposes.

I wonder if tranny can come back and explain it all to us.
 

BOP

Well-Known Member
Simple. Because it is always up to the INDIVIDUAL to take responsibility. Providing these programs only gives crack to the addict. If these people were of sound financial judgement (to maintain payments on their new home) then they wouldn't need the help in the first place.
Its akin to the whole "get rid of assault weapon" cries. You can remove them BUT, its not going to stop the irresponsible and or mentally challenged from finding another way to harm people (or themselves)
You racist bass-turd! Why do you hate children!?

Speaking of children, how many on the left want to disarm us so we can't shoot them for loving children a little too much?
 

Kyle

Beloved Misanthrope
PREMO Member

“Governments don't want a population capable of critical thinking, they want obedient workers, people just smart enough to run the machines and just dumb enough to passively accept their situation.”​


― George Carlin
 
The rate changes aren't supposed to ensure that higher risk borrowers make their payments. The rate changes are supposed to shift the costs of insuring mortgages such that people with lower risk mortgages pay more (than they otherwise would have) and people with higher risk mortgages pay less (than they otherwise would have).

It's conceptually comparable to raising the auto insurance premiums of 40 year olds with no accidents from $1,000 a year to $1,100 a year so that you can lower the auto insurance premiums of 18 year olds with 3 accidents from $4,000 a year to $3,000 a year. Ostensibly both groups will, respectively, create roughly the same amount of claim liability as before. And the total premiums collected will, ostensibly, remain roughly the same. But the first group now bears a larger relative share of the insurance cost. If the premiums were fairly set before - i.e., they accurately reflected the risks of the respective groups - then the changes amount to forcing the former group to subsidize insurance costs for the latter group.
I left an important if in this previous post because I had no idea whether the previous rates accurately reflected the risks of the respective groups. I'm not an actuary and at that point I'd never looked at analysis of default rates comparing them, e.g., across different credit scores.

So I tried to find such analysis and found the latest revision (at least I think it's the latest revision) of an FHFA working paper analyzing mortgage default risk. It deals in broader strokes than the LLPA matrices do. The latest matrix breaks down into 9 credit score bands and 9 LTV bands. But the general picture painted by the analysis - a flatter default risk curve - comports more with the new modified matrix than with the previous matrix, at least when it comes to credit score differences.

Whereas previously someone with a credit score of 630 was (in a lot of LTV ranges) paying 13X as much as someone with a credit score of 750, now they'll be paying around 3X as much. Are the knew rates fairer than the old ones? I don't know, again I'm not an actuary and I don't have the reams of data I'd need to make a fair assessment; but it seems they might be.

I do strongly suspect they're fairer in one way though. Previously the benefit of having higher credit scores stopped at 740, which isn't really that high a score. Above that the rates stayed the same. Now you continue to get the benefit of lowering rates up to 780, which still isn't a really high score. But people at 780 and above are generally better off than or the same as they were before. What the rate adjustments really did is flatten the curve in the middle. People with high credit scores tend to be better off, people with low credit scores tend to be better off, and people in the middle tend to be worse off. But, again, that may well accurately reflect the relative risks. You'll still be paying a lot less if you have a mid-700s credit score rather than a mid-600s.
 
Was this an executive order or some pork package that got sent through with another bill?
I don't think it was an executive order, just an adjustment from the FHFA - the agency that regulates Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Somewhere in the authorizing laws or the federal regulations they're probably charged with setting and adjusting such rates as appropriate.

The real problem here is the existence of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. But I won't get lost in that issue.
 

OccamsRazor

Well-Known Member
I do strongly suspect they're fairer in one way though. Previously the benefit of having higher credit scores stopped at 740, which isn't really that high a score. Above that the rates stayed the same. Now you continue to get the benefit of lowering rates up to 780, which still isn't a really high score. But people at 780 and above are generally better off than or the same as they were before. What the rate adjustments really did is flatten the curve in the middle. People with high credit scores tend to be better off, people with low credit scores tend to be better off, and people in the middle tend to be worse off. But, again, that may well accurately reflect the relative risks. You'll still be paying a lot less if you have a mid-700s credit score rather than a mid-600s.
Although I do agree with you that there are "credit bands" that associate with lending capabilities, I still do not see this as anything other than wealth re-distribution. Anytime you are asking the "financially sound" people to pay more so the "financially unsound" can afford or qualify for something (i.e. mortgage qual, lower payments, etc.) then it is nothing more than wealth re-distribution a.k.a. SOCIALISM.
 
Very good explanations. It is appreciated.
The bottom line is this. Would I (having and earning a great credit score and shopping wisely for a new home) be paying MORE with this program than I would without it?
If the answer is YES, justifying it by saying it helps those that have not worked as hard for a good credit score or did not do their due diligence in the process is nothing more than wealth re-distribution = SOCIALISM.
You'd be paying more as a result of the recent changes, yes.

Speaking more broadly, I agree with you. We have huge problems with wealth redistribution. It's a function of mass-participation democracy and assigning everyone an arbitrarily equal unit of decision making power. One of the things majorities (or functional majorities) do is vote to redistribute wealth to themselves. We redistribute wealth from higher incomes to lower incomes, from people without children to people with children, from the private sector to the public sector.

The real problem isn't the details of how we operate various problems which we get bogged down arguing over. The problem is the existence of many of the programs to begin with. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shouldn't exist as they currently do. The government shouldn't be making and maintaining a secondary market for mortgages. We shouldn't be trying to force home ownership to levels above what a free market would create.
 
Although I do agree with you that there are "credit bands" that associate with lending capabilities, I still do not see this as anything other than wealth re-distribution. Anytime you are asking the "financially sound" people to pay more so the "financially unsound" can afford or qualify for something (i.e. mortgage qual, lower payments, etc.) then it is nothing more than wealth re-distribution a.k.a. SOCIALISM.
To be clear though, we aren't talking about higher credit scores paying more than lower credit scores. We're talking about lower credit scores paying more than higher credit scores, but by a smaller ratio than they previously did. So the question is, was it effectively wealth redistribution before or is it effectively wealth redistribution now or is it some of both?

Were lower credit scores paying more than they should have before based on the relative default risks, while higher credit scores were paying too little? And this fixed that to some degree? Or were the rates fair before and now they aren't? Again, I'm not an actuary and don't have all the data I'd need to know the answers. But what I did find suggests the latter might be the case... i.e., 630 credit scores shouldn't have been paying 13X what 750 credit scores were, they should have been paying something closer to 3X.
 
The problem is that home ownership is a PRIVILEDGE and law makers are trying to make it a HUMAN RIGHT!
Yeah. Governments here have been trying to force more home ownership as though it's, as a default, the proper state for everyone. It's not. There's nothing inherently wrong with renting; it's the right thing in many situations. And free markets would be quite good at sorting out when people should own and when they shouldn't.

But politically there are advantages to convincing people they should be home owners and then helping them be home owners.
 

OccamsRazor

Well-Known Member
I just want to point out that subsidizing home ownership for those who can't afford it is what caused the housing market crash of 2008.
Yep! This time, instead of giving out subsidized mortgages, waiting for them to go bust, bailing out the banks, and then using tax payer funds to repay the bailout... they are cutting out the middle men and going straight to subsidizing mortgages with tax payer funds.
 
I just want to point out that subsidizing home ownership for those who can't afford it is what caused the housing market crash of 2008.
Yes, and one of the main ways we did that was through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the artificial (i.e. government led) creation of a secondary mortgage market. That decoupled mortgage origination from mortgage maintenance on a mass scale and set the stage for what happened. But, of course, we haven't learned our lesson because we're still blaming the wrong people, institutions, and dynamics.
 
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