Minimum Wage BS

[czygvtwkr]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070109/ts_csm/aminwage

Ok first of all 40 hours per week makes $240. Secondly I’m sure there is another retail job available that pays more than minimum wage. I was somewhat surprised to find out that many jobs at retail stores pay $10 an hour or more, of course you have to have some drive and responsibility.

Why can’t mom get a small part time job when dad isn’t working to help make ends meet?

Why doesn’t dad do odd jobs or something?

Did they know they couldn’t afford to feed their kids before they had them?

Sorry to seem crass but when my dad was unemployed in the early 80’s he busted his butt painting houses for extra cash and my mom babysat for $12 a day per kid.

Things are not as destitute as this article makes them out to be.

 

[SamSpade]

The minimum wage debate is usually argued in terms of sentimentality and some cries of social justice, but it's almost never argued in the area it needs - cold hard numbers. While it's tragic that some people try to live on a single minimum wage, most who earn it are not doing it. In fact, just over 50% of all minimum wage earners are in fact, teenagers. Another large portion are older workers returning to work for a few more dollars. And ALL the figures pointing to minimum wage earners include jobs where the larger portion of the money comes from tips - delivery, wait staff, restaurants etc.

Before someone paints me as being unsympathetic, try to consider - if you're a bleeding heart liberal - exactly WHO is being helped by a minimum wage hike?

By and large, it's suburban kids and people working either a second job or working part-time. Of the persons who are NOT kids working part-time - about 47% - half of THOSE are part-time workers. More than half of the same 47% have better than a high school education. Only one in five of the minimum wage earners live in a household considered poor and they are almost never the sole wage-earner. To no surprise, raising the minimum wage has no measurable effect on the poverty rate.

If Congress wants to help the truly needy, they need to create an effort that *TARGETS* those in need and provides better assistance for them. Raising the minimum wage is one of those "solutions" that makes people feel good, but does NOT HELP THE POOR. In the very short run, it costs them jobs. If you want to help the poor, you don't do it by giving more money to suburban kids and affluent people and tip-earners who will welcome the raise but don't need it to live on. You help the poor by giving them assistance; provide job training, since so many have such poor skills, low paying jobs is all they can get; provide housing and medical assistance; provide better support for day care; increase the EIC.

By raising the minimum wage, you might just as well drive down the street and throw money out the window and hope that a poor person gets it - because that's kind of the way it works. You're raising the salary for 100 people in hopes that it will help the ONE that needs it. It's dumb policy.

But it wins votes, because no one ever pays attention to this stuff.

 

[smoothmarine187]

he needs to get off his lazy ass and work two jobs. Who's fault is it that all he can make is minimum wage.

 

[mrweb]

If Congress wants to help the truly needy, they need to create an effort that *TARGETS* those in need and provides better assistance for them. Raising the minimum wage is one of those "solutions" that makes people feel good, but does NOT HELP THE POOR. In the very short run, it costs them jobs. If you want to help the poor, you don't do it by giving more money to suburban kids and affluent people and tip-earners who will welcome the raise but don't need it to live on. You help the poor by giving them assistance; provide job training, since so many have such poor skills, low paying jobs is all they can get; provide housing and medical assistance; provide better support for day care; increase the EIC.

By raising the minimum wage, you might just as well drive down the street and throw money out the window and hope that a poor person gets it - because that's kind of the way it works. You're raising the salary for 100 people in hopes that it will help the ONE that needs it. It's dumb policy.

But it wins votes, because no one ever pays attention to this stuff.

There is the key, job training. I also think that high schools should have two different tracks, more defined than they are now. One track for those committed to going to college and one for those who don't want (or can't afford) college, that being a trade school where they learn a marketable skill such as auto mechanics, plumbing, electrical, computer repair/installation, etc. Manufacturing jobs of yesteryear are pretty much gone so learning a trade, any trade, is paramount, however it does take some effort as an adult to get off your lazy butt and get some training after you get off your full time, minimum wage job. I don't know but I'll wager that there are adult education classes that would train those in our area seemingly stuck in minimum wage jobs.

 

[smoothmarine187]

I don't feel sorry for anyone on minumut wage, all they would have to do is join a union. The plumbers union will put you through 5 years of school, give you a raise every year, and at the end of 5 years you will be making 31 dollars per hour and full benefits.

 

[Larry Gude]

Sam...

...there's a further part of this that needs to be considered; the impact on everyone else's wages, especially those fairly close to the minimum.

You and I are co-workers, anywhere. You've been there longer than me, maybe you've done a better job, know how to do more things, you're there all the time, whatever, and the boss is paying you $8.50 an hour. I'm making Maryland minimum of $6.15. Maybe I'm not setting the world on fire, take off whenever I get a chance, but the boss likes my jokes and I get enough things done for him to keep me around.

Maybe we have other co-workers who are making anywhere between what I am making and you, based on how long they've been there, how well they do, etc, but all of them, 5 people, 10, 100, are making more than me.

So, suddenly, congress tells our boss, 'You gotta pay everybody at least $7.25 an hour."

I'm happy; I got a raise. How about the folks making $.50 more than me, or $.75 or a dollar an hour more?

Is boss man gonna move them to $7.25 PLUS the difference relative to me? Does Sam and all the other people already earning over the minimum get an equivalent raise? Do you go to $9.60 to keep the $2.35 difference between you and me, a difference you earned through time and effort?

If I work 20 hours a week as a part time job, I'm costing my employer, at the proposed new minimum, and extra $1.10 an hour plus about 13% over that to cover ss/med, SUI and FUTA, or about $1.25 more per hour times my 20 hours; $25, $100 a month. If I show up for all my hours.

Big deal, right? What about you? Simple fairness says he's gotta give you something or does he just expect you to say "Oh well, Larry got a raise for nothing, I got nothing for all I do. I'm motivated! No big deal!"

If you're top guy at $8.50 and there's 10 of us employees and between the 10 of us we average say about $7.25 an hour, from my $6.15 to your $8.50, a few people at 8, a few at 7, a few at $6.50, he's gonna have to pay somewhere around $3-4 an hour more to get the under $7.25 crowd up to the new minimum.

I just got an 18% raise. If the boss is paying an average of $7.25 times 10 people times, say 20 hours a week, a payroll of $1,450 a week plus that good old 13% extra overhead, $1,638 total, and he wants to keep the economic motivation in place that has rewarded folks for being more reliable, better worker, etc, he'd have to give everyone an 18% raise as well, an extra $300 a week, or deal with the consequences of giving better people less than he was forced to give his worst guy.

Does he not give the over $7.25 people anything? Is that a good business decision?

Does he raise prices?

Some combination of wages, prices, cuts in profit, cut Christmas bonus, paid holidays?

Does he fire me and maybe one other guy? That's 10-20% of his workforce.

It is not reasonable to expect in a workplace where employees are motivated by doing more to earn more to simply accept someone doing less than you to get a raise and you don't.

 

[vraiblonde]

McDonalds doesn't pay minimum wage, nor does Wal-Mart, and you don't need any special job training to work there. He could be a garbage guy or work for a lawn service, neither of which require a college degree or any special skills. He could work construction and they'll give him OJT.

The wife could take in daycare (which I did to make ends meet after my son was born). She could also hold a part-time evening job while her husband works during the day (I have also done this several times to avoid child care costs).

Unfortunately I've known people like the Hosier's personally, and every time you suggest ways to improve their lot in life, they always come up with an excuse why they "can't".

"Bring the baby over here while you're at work - she can play with Dougie."
"Oh, no - she gets too upset when I leave her."

"Hey, my buddy just told me they're hiring for the road crew."
"Ugh - don't those guys have to get up at 5 in the morning?"

"There's a custodial position open at the hospital, good wages and benefits."
"I don't think I could work in a hospital - they give me the creeps."

So it's hard for me to feel sorry for these people.

 

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070109/ts_csm/aminwage

Ok first of all 40 hours per week makes $240. Secondly I’m sure there is another retail job available that pays more than minimum wage. I was somewhat surprised to find out that many jobs at retail stores pay $10 an hour or more, of course you have to have some drive and responsibility.

Why can’t mom get a small part time job when dad isn’t working to help make ends meet?

Why doesn’t dad do odd jobs or something?

Did they know they couldn’t afford to feed their kids before they had them?

Sorry to seem crass but when my dad was unemployed in the early 80’s he busted his butt painting houses for extra cash and my mom babysat for $12 a day per kid.

Things are not as destitute as this article makes them out to be.

Not alot of retail jobs pay more than minimum wage, unless they're management positions. Target's pretty good about pay from what I hear.

 

[Mikeinsmd]

I don't feel sorry for anyone on minumut wage, all they would have to do is join a union. The plumbers union will put you through 5 years of school, give you a raise every year, and at the end of 5 years you will be making 31 dollars per hour and full benefits.

Same with the electrical union. Excellent bene's too.

I think most career minimum wage earners are too lazy to get real jobs.

 

[smoothmarine187]

Same with the electrical union. Excellent bene's too.

I think most career minimum wage earners are too lazy to get real jobs.

All they want to do is sit around and cry about it, because they are to lazy to actually do something about it.

 

[MMDad]

Not alot of retail jobs pay more than minimum wage, unless they're management positions. Target's pretty good about pay from what I hear.

I saw a sign on Sheetz that said minimum $7.50 to start. Raising the minimum wage will have little, if any, effect around here because there are few jobs that are below the proposed minimum.

If I have five workers, each making $6.00, and now I have to pay them $7.25, do you think I am just going to absorb that extra $6.25? What I would do is tell the four remaining employees that they are now expected to do more work since they make more money. The fifth guy would be living in a homeless shelter. See how much raising the minimum wage helped him?

 

[SamSpade]

...there's a further part of this that needs to be considered; the impact on everyone else's wages, especially those fairly close to the minimum.

That's why I mentioned that, in the short term, it can be shown that minimum wage increases COST jobs. Eventually, inlfation and everything else reaches a new equilibrium and jobs can be restored. But in the short term - if I were your boss - I'd cut the two least productive workers. If everyone made CLOSE to the same wage, it'd probably be the most recently hired guy. I know this happens, because I've seen it happen, especially in small businesses. My roomie worked in a small deli making sandwiches - the wage got hiked - he got canned and they found a way to make the same amount of sandwiches with one less guy. A year or so later, they hired another guy again, once the smoke cleared.

I'm pretty sure I can find articles that corroborate this phenomenon - over the short term, wage hikes cost jobs, especially if they're giving people HUGE increases with no phase-in. It's one thing that drives me crazy with some on the left - they just don't grasp that businesses exist to make money, not to provide paychecks and benefits.

 

[SamSpade]

There is the key, job training. I also think that high schools should have two different tracks, more defined than they are now. One track for those committed to going to college and one for those who don't want (or can't afford) college, that being a trade school where they learn a marketable skill such as auto mechanics, plumbing, electrical, computer repair/installation, etc. Manufacturing jobs of yesteryear are pretty much gone so learning a trade, any trade, is paramount, however it does take some effort as an adult to get off your lazy butt and get some training after you get off your full time, minimum wage job. I don't know but I'll wager that there are adult education classes that would train those in our area seemingly stuck in minimum wage jobs.

I'll go one better - because lots of high schools already have these tracks (I don't know about the schools here, but everyone I went to had vo-tech training, which functioned almost like a completely separate school).

They should expand the function of these schools.

And there should be a new set of post-high training that is neither vo-tech or college. Consider - how many people do you know who are getting certified as an MS Network Engineer or getting A-plus certification - and they don't even have a degree? Or get certified on Novell or Cisco? Why isn't there something like a college degree, sans all the *CRAP* that colleges tack on to make a full degree but which add nothing to the student's understanding of their declared major? (For example, I completed an Electrical Engineering degree with about 150 credits - but a good 30 or more were in areas completely unrelated to Engineering such as history and art, because they were required. A small amount were in areas such as chemistry, which in reality also has almost nothing to do with my declared major. Why can't some school create a curricula in say, computer science that finishes in 2 years but actually teaches them about computers, and not pads it out with crap that won't serve anyone but the school's wish to make money off of subjects the student doesn't "need"?).

 

[PsyOps]

It is exactly the liberals' purpose to put the economy in such a position as to give those in lower incomes the impression they have to depend on the government to rescue them. The minimum wage hike is a ruse.

 

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

I saw a sign on Sheetz that said minimum $7.50 to start. Raising the minimum wage will have little, if any, effect around here because there are few jobs that are below the proposed minimum.

If I have five workers, each making $6.00, and now I have to pay them $7.25, do you think I am just going to absorb that extra $6.25? What I would do is tell the four remaining employees that they are now expected to do more work since they make more money. The fifth guy would be living in a homeless shelter. See how much raising the minimum wage helped him?

$7.50 was my starting pay when I worked at Checkers of Waldorf. The consencus is that they will raise minimum wage.

 

[kwillia]

Forrest Career & Tech Center for St. Mary's County Schools

High school students who take advantage of what the tech center has to offer can graduate high school FULLY certified in a number of fields. I know for a fact that their graduates who take the three year course in large engine mechanics and pass certification are heavily wooed and recruited by a number of big rig mechanic departments such as Peterbilt of Baltimore, Peterbilt of Easton, Caterpillar also recruits graduates. Last year's certified graduates were able to walk out of high school and begin immediately making no less than $21 an hour.

 

[chernmax]

$7.50 was my starting pay when I worked at Checkers of Waldorf. The consencus is that they will raise minimum wage.

$8.50 was my starting salary working as a warehouseman for a large moving company in New York back in 1978!!!

 

[SamSpade]

It is exactly the liberals' purpose to put the economy in such a position as to give those in lower incomes the impression they have to depend on the government to rescue them. The minimum wage hike is a ruse.

Yes and no.

Although it makes a good right wing talking point, the concept that the left wants to maintain dependence on the government as a means of securing their vote is a bit of a conceit. I don't think the reality is that they fully intend that to happen. I do think it is a consequence of what they want, and it has a lot to do with their concept of what government is intended to do.

I have an extended family that is almost entirely liberal - from the slightly moderate to the "Bush blew up the WTC and he is Hitler reincarnated" variety. They look at government kind of like a struggling family.

Try to imagine a family where everyone works but they all live in the same house. Say, the Walton family from the show years ago. They all work, and bring the fruit of their labor together. The function of that family is such that everyone's needs are met. They take care of each other. This is the idyllic view my extended family has, of government. Socialism, basically. It's an inclusive environment where everyone participates.

I don't want that. Sorry. Mainly because when I've participated in something like that, on a small scale - say a large house of unrelated adults paying for groceries and bills - there's always some lazy azz who won't do anything - there's some schmuck who thinks he deserves more, and he's running the treasury. There's some nitwit who thinks we need more sports channels on the cable and orders more of them, even though he's the only one watching it. There's another who reaches into the common till to buy wedding gifts for their friends - but forgets your birthday.

I don't like that view of government, because it just doesn't work no matter how much you want it to work.

My view is more like - government as a paid service. More on that in a bit.

When you go on a cruise, you pay a fairly large fee - and after that, everything you want - mostly - is covered. All your food. Entertainment. Lodging. It's all covered. Mostly, all you have to do is show up. Even some medical is covered. You pay one big price, and they take care of you.

I prefer the view of it as a service. Most of the time, I don't need government. I need them to protect my country; keep the crooks in jail; make sure that roads are built, schools open, laws are enforced. For that, I pay them a portion of my salary. In my view, if anyone wants something extra, it should be the *GOVERNMENT* coming to me for money for extra items. Not the other way around.

See, the problem with the government as caretaker view is - if any entity possesses the power to give you anything - they ALSO possess the power - to TAKE IT AWAY. Which, in my view, is exactly what happens with the poor and disadvantaged. It's not that the left put them there to keep them down - it's more that the poor need them there, because that's where they are now.

From my perspective, this is where the left and right clash the most - view of the role of government. The socialist Walton family view which you pay a huge chunk of change and everything is taken care of - and the other where they stay the hell out of your life unless you need them.

 

[SamSpade]

Forrest Career & Tech Center for St. Mary's County Schools

High school students who take advantage of what the tech center has to offer can graduate high school FULLY certified in a number of fields. I know for a fact that their graduates who take the three year course in large engine mechanics and pass certification are heavily wooed and recruited by a number of big rig mechanic departments such as Peterbilt of Baltimore, Peterbilt of Easton, Caterpillar also recruits graduates. Last year's certified graduates were able to walk out of high school and begin immediately making no less than $21 an hour.

This has ALWAYS been a great idea. It has one huge disadvantage, which is not its fault.

Most kids haven't the faintest idea what they want to do at the time they need to commit to it. They SHOULD give it some thought. But how many of us who went to college knew people who still hadn't declared a major after two or even three years? How many did you know that just chose a generic degree totally unrelated to their later career, just because they wanted SOMETHING?

I think it's really important that kids give more thought to a career earlier in life. But I think they need to provide schools of this sort, for adults after high school - because they STILL don't know what they want.

 

[This_person]

Maybe I missed something somewhere in this discussion, but..... several states have minimum wages that exceed the federal minimum wage. Why does the federal government need to be involved in this issue at all. Certainly, it's more expensive to live in Maryland than, say, South Dakota. Why not have minimums that are right for each state? Set by that state?

Also, why does the federal government need to be involved in jobs training, "targeted" help to these people? I understand generically helping out people to get a college degree (that's in the "provide for the general welfare" concept), but specifically getting into "targeting" training? What happened to individual responsibility, to Americans helping Americans (read: scholarships, grants, internships, etc.)? I think the discussion is going in the entirely wrong direction. We need to let the federal minimum wage just slowly fade into oblivion and let the states take care of themselves (sort of like the tenth amendment implies)