More 9/11 Conspiracies

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
They believe a group of US neo-conservatives called the Project for a New American Century, set on US world dominance, orchestrated the 9/11 attacks as an excuse to hit Iraq, Afghanistan and later Iran.
:roflmao:

1. The US is *already* world dominant.
2. Why would they go after Afghanistan? Wouldn't it be easier to cut to the chase and say Iraqis did it? Or Iranians?
3. Leftists are far more likely to want global fascism, not conservatives.
4. We didn't need an "excuse" for Iraq - it's been there for 15 years with two War Resolutions from two different presidents supporting it.
5. The 9-11 Commission included anti-Bush members. Why didn't they find evidence of this conspiracy?
6. This theory would require way too many people being in the know, yet keeping their mouth shut.

Who listens to these crackpots, anyway? Oh...this woman does:

Are we supposed to be surprised by this news? America is the most violent country on earth and I would put nothing past them.

- Lynne Riniker-Jackson, Nyon, Switzerland
Obviously Ms. Riniker-Jackson has never heard of Somalia. Or Columbia. Or Liberia. And she apparently didn't read the UN report that SCOTLAND is #1 in terms of the most violent developed nation.

These people.... :rolleyes:
 

tirdun

staring into the abyss
The people who believe conspiracy theories simply want to believe. There is rarely any point in arguing with them, as I know from experience.

Four planes went missing on 11 SEP 2001. There were 4 crashes, 2 of which are on tape. Forensic evidence (chunks of plane, DNA tests) and logic conclude that these are the same planes, but the CTs will argue until they are blue that some or all of the planes weren't really planes. A missile hit the pentagon, a drone hit WTC2, U93 landed in Pittsburgh. The missing aircraft are just part of the bigger conspiracy. The victims were really in on it. It goes on and on.

I've heard it described as "trying to nail jell-o to a wall". No matter how many nails you use, or how carefully you aim, they keep slipping away.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
I don't listen to conspiracy theories that are characterized by one dominant feature - they ask questions, but don't present EVIDENCE. As in, how would you PROVE what happened at the Pentagon, given a scenario where no one saw it, no one heard anything, and everybody woke up to a big hole in the building. How would you go about PROVING it was a missile? Where's the forensic evidence, the explosive materials, the patterns, the delivery system, the trajectory, the point of origin, the paper trail for the purchase and placement of the missile, the persons involved.

Basically, if you were to try to convict someone in court for firing a missile at the Pentagon - the kind of evidence you'd need to even GET a trial.

And there isn't any. There's only conjecture and doubt, and where there is a LACK of evidence, some magic hand-waving saying it's all covered up.

Has anyone figured out that in order to blow up two or three World Trade Center buildings, you'd have to wire the damned thing for weeks, with explosives? Do you think - SOMEONE - would notice? Is there any intelligent reason why we have rooms full of intelligence and interrogations outlining exactly how it was done, who did it, how they financed it, trained the men, got them in here - CLAIMED CREDIT FOR IT - while the conspiracy theorists ONLY have that the data is secretly hidden away somewhere?

It's a joke. I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough - and blinded by their own political dislike - to believe anything like this.
 
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czygvtwkr

Guest
My cousin was actually at the Pentagon that morning. He works for the landscaping company that was planting trees and shrubs. He saw that one website that says it was a cruise missle and he said they sure did a good job making that missile look like a large airplane.
 

Coventry17

New Member
vraiblonde said:
1. The US is *already* world dominant.

Really? How many countries have you lived in or visited to support this conclusion?

vraiblonde said:
2. Why would they go after Afghanistan? Wouldn't it be easier to cut to the chase and say Iraqis did it?

Bush already tried to, and got his dick stepped on for doing so.

vraiblonde said:
3. Leftists are far more likely to want global fascism, not conservatives.

Wrong. Fascism stems from the extreme right. COMMUNISM is the offspring of the extreme left. The two are not synonyms.

vraiblonde said:
4. We didn't need an "excuse" for Iraq - it's been there for 15 years with two War Resolutions from two different presidents supporting it.

There are United Nation resolutions, which the U.S. has no legal jurisdiction to enforce unilaterally.

vraiblonde said:
5. The 9-11 Commission included anti-Bush members. Why didn't they find evidence of this conspiracy?

Government appointed commissions rarely do anything of consequence. Ever hear of the Warren Commission?
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
Wrong. Fascism stems from the extreme right. COMMUNISM is the offspring of the extreme left. The two are not synonyms.

So, you would argue there has been no communist government that was also fascist?

Considering that fascism came from Mussolini and his same people later brought similar ideals to other countries... one being National Socialism (hmm, thats pretty conservative). If you stick to the Fascist political party, which hasn't existed in that form for some time, you would be correct. However, fascism, in the modern sense, refers to "a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism."

So, would you say Lenin did not become a dictator? In fact, did he not forcibly suppress opposition and criticism? Control everything and demand nationalism?!

Do you think we could point to a few more communist/socialist dictators with the same? Just checking...
 
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czygvtwkr

Guest
Coventry17 said:
Really? How many countries have you lived in or visited to support this conclusion?

We are the only country to have sent man to the moon, every country in the world except Russia fly US built aircraft, the world economy uses the US dollar (Saddam had trucks full of US currency), the world comes to the US for education, there are McDonalds, Walmarts, and Starbucks all over the world, the supporting facts go on and on.....
 
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czygvtwkr

Guest
Coventry17 said:
There are United Nation resolutions, which the U.S. has no legal jurisdiction to enforce unilaterally.

Every day the US planes flew the No fly zones in Iraq they were fired upon. The very first time this happened Saddam broke the cease fire agreement and we had a right to reinvade Iraq.
 

Coventry17

New Member
czygvtwkr said:
Every day the US planes flew the No fly zones in Iraq they were fired upon. The very first time this happened Saddam broke the cease fire agreement and we had a right to reinvade Iraq.

You mean the 'no fly zones' instituted by the United Nations? Again, we had no jurisdiction to act there unilaterally.
 
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czygvtwkr

Guest
Coventry17 said:
You mean the 'no fly zones' instituted by the United Nations? Again, we had no jurisdiction to act there unilaterally.

Last time I checked no country in the world has to ask the UN before they do anything. The UN has less authority than your local home owners association. The way the UN is setup if any permanant member of the security counsel does something wrong they can just Veto any any action aginst them

Also the prefix uni means ONE. Lets see Great Britian, Italy, and Spain were also involved.
 

Coventry17

New Member
FromTexas said:
So, you would argue there has been no communist government that was also fascist?

Yes I would. A true communist society has never existed. Ironically, our neighbor to the north, Canada, is probably the closest to the Communist ideal written about by Karl Marx.

FromTexas said:
Considering that fascism came from Mussolini and his same people later brought similar ideals to other countries... one being National Socialism (hmm, thats pretty conservative).

Really? What other countries? Examples, please. Mussolini invaded Ethiopia in the middle of that country's civil war, but fascism was never instituted there. They were not able to extend their territory in Europe whatsoever.

FromTexas said:
If you stick to the Fascist political party, which hasn't existed in that form for some time, you would be correct. However, fascism, in the modern sense, refers to "a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism."

Very nice use of the dictionary. What you quoted from Webster's is exactly what happened in Italy in the 30's and 40's. It's also what Bush acolyte kool-aid drinkers would like to create here in the U.S. On many fronts, they've already succeeded.

FromTexas said:
So, would you say Lenin did not become a dictator? In fact, did he not forcibly suppress opposition and criticism? Control everything and demand nationalism?!

Do you think we could point to a few more communist/socialist dictators with the same? Just checking...

Lenin was pre-Fascism/Mussolini. Not really sure of the relevance. By your argument, that must mean that modern democracy is a failure, too. I mean, in our 'free' society, we have the president violating international law by invading sovereign nations unilaterally, conducting illegal wiretaps on American citizens and illegally censoring what we read/see/hear via an out of control FCC. All of this is done in the guise of 'democracy'.
 

The Big Ed.

New Member
Coventry17 said:
I mean, in our 'free' society, we have the president violating international law by invading sovereign nations unilaterally, conducting illegal wiretaps on American citizens and illegally censoring what we read/see/hear via an out of control FCC. All of this is done in the guise of 'democracy'.

Without getting into a long winded post regarding your other points -
How exactly is Bush violating "international law?" Do we as a nation lose the right to defend ourselves and persue the courses of action that are in the interests of our nations survival becuase other nations don't like it? Unilateral means we did it alone. Did Britain, Spain, Australia and about 25 - 30 other allied nations that went in with us somehow not count in your eyes? Do you deny their nationhood?

Illegal Wiretaps on American Citizens - Nothing illegal about this. In fact, under the previous administration, this was done to a much greater degree domestically, and it was never an issue. It only became an issue when Bush detractors began the squeaky wheel routine. Interestingly enough, many of those who criticize this program are the same folks who attack Bush for "not doing enough to keep us safe" in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. Do you feel Bush is not doing enough to protect us? If so, what would you do differently?

Finally - the "illegal censorship" card. This point has been brought up on websites like this literally more times than I can count. We are also treated to a steady barage of this accusation from celebrities like George Clooney and Democrat politicions on nationally televised programs in front of millions of people. Can someone, anyone, please explain this supposed censorship to me? And if it does exist, how is it that you and so many others are able to attack Bush personally and on policy carte blanche without being censored?
 

JOKER

Great Mills Rd
The Big Ed. said:
Without getting into a long winded post regarding your other points -
How exactly is Bush violating "international law?" Do we as a nation lose the right to defend ourselves and persue the courses of action that are in the interests of our nations survival becuase other nations don't like it? Unilateral means we did it alone. Did Britain, Spain, Australia and about 25 - 30 other allied nations that went in with us somehow not count in your eyes? Do you deny their nationhood?

Illegal Wiretaps on American Citizens - Nothing illegal about this. In fact, under the previous administration, this was done to a much greater degree domestically, and it was never an issue. It only became an issue when Bush detractors began the squeaky wheel routine. Interestingly enough, many of those who criticize this program are the same folks who attack Bush for "not doing enough to keep us safe" in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. Do you feel Bush is not doing enough to protect us? If so, what would you do differently?

Finally - the "illegal censorship" card. This point has been brought up on websites like this literally more times than I can count. We are also treated to a steady barage of this accusation from celebrities like George Clooney and Democrat politicions on nationally televised programs in front of millions of people. Can someone, anyone, please explain this supposed censorship to me? And if it does exist, how is it that you and so many others are able to attack Bush personally and on policy carte blanche without being censored?
:yeahthat:
 
T

tikipirate

Guest
Coventry17 said:
Really? What other countries? Examples, please. Mussolini invaded Ethiopia in the middle of that country's civil war, but fascism was never instituted there. They were not able to extend their territory in Europe whatsoever.

Coventry,

I don't know the last time you have visited Ethiopia or Erititria, but I will tell you that Benito didn't spread the lovin' word too well. I was always appreciative of my (heavily) armed SF african-american bodyguards.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Coventry17 said:
we have the president violating international law by invading sovereign nations unilaterally, conducting illegal wiretaps on American citizens and illegally censoring what we read/see/hear via an out of control FCC. All of this is done in the guise of 'democracy'.
1) Cite me international law that the president violated.
2) What is the FCC censoring?

Be specific now because if you don't know something, you can't just "make up" facts.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Oh, and according to the War Powers Resolution of 1973, Public Law 93-148, the president has the authority to wage war without the consent of Congress.

"Portions of the War Powers Resolution require the President to consult with Congress prior to the start of any hostilities as well as regularly until U.S. armed forces are no longer engaged in hostilities (Sec. 3); and to remove U.S. armed forces from hostilities if Congress has not declared war or passed a resolution authorizing the use of force within 60 days (Sec. 5(b)). Following an official request by the President to Congress, the time limit can be extended by an additional 30 days (presumably when "unavoidable military necessity" requires additional action for a safe withdrawal)."

Which Congress did. Nothing in any US law or code states that we are bound by the UN, nor does the UN have the authority to make laws governing other countries.
 
9/11 conspiracy theorists multiply

He wondered why 110-story towers crashed and military jets failed to intercept even one airliner. He read the 9/11 Commission report with a swell of anger. Contradictions were ignored and no military or civilian official was reprimanded, much less cashiered.

"To me, the report read as a cartoon." White-haired and courtly, Griffin sits on a couch in a hotel lobby in Manhattan, unspooling words in that reasonable Presbyterian minister's voice. "It's a much greater stretch to accept the official conspiracy story than to consider the alternatives."

Such as?

"There was massive complicity in this attack by U.S. government operatives."

I cannot see how "massive complicity" by the U.S. government can be considered a "conspiracy" or something out of the norm for what we Americans can expect from our government. There is no way in hell "we Americans" would have allowed our government to implement the current level of security at airports pre-9/11 and I have yet to figure out exactly what anyone expect the military jets to do to those rogue planes pre-9/11... shoot them down? Force them into the ground? Give me a break... could you imagine the uproar had our government had time to make and enforce such a decision. :rolleyes: Better yet... do you really think America is ready to accept the government making a split second decision to shoot down a possible rogue plane today? I think not.... heck, America is having a hissy because they can't bring their hair gel on board.
 

Coventry17

New Member
Bustem' Down said:
1) Cite me international law that the president violated.
2) What is the FCC censoring?

Be specific now because if you don't know something, you can't just "make up" facts.

Benjamin Ferenccz, who was the lead prosecutor of the Nazi War Crime tribunal at Nuremberg, said just two weeks ago that George Bush should stand trial as well as Saddam Hussein. He said that America's campaign in Iraq constitutes a "supreme international crime" capable of prosecution in an international court. In May, a group of 27 Non-Government organizations (NGO's) stated that the American led coalition force in Iraq has seriously violated international law, including bans on torture and illegal detention, as well as the use of “indiscriminate and especially injurious” weapons. I could site examples for hours. I agree with the president's responsibility to protect American citizens. However, Iraq did not pose a threat to the U.S.


As far as the FCC and censorship, that's like shooting fish in a barrel. Bush's alignment with the religious right has turned the U.S. into a semi-theocracy. It's so bad that CBS is afraid to air a DOCUMENTARY about 9/11 because of some of the language used by firemen in the film. The FCC has doubled fines for broadcasts they deem "indecent", yet there are no guidelines about what is acceptable and what is not.
 
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