More 9/11 Conspiracies
- Thread starter ylexot
- Start date
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Guess we ought to agree on terms...
Here's what I hope is an acceptable baseline to discuss fascism;
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
I think we'd all have to agree that this criteria is a reality in the US today.
1/1
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
This one is absolutely NOT reality in the US today. Torture is a mole hill, it just is, in comparison to the mountain; illegal immigration. It is unthinkable that classic fascist regimes would allow much in the way of LEGAL immigration, let alone the nearly uncontrolled illegal immigration we have today.
1/2
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
This is also not happening here. Bush takes incredible strides to differentiate Islamic terrorists from Islam as a whole. We also take incredible steps to avoid stigmatizing and profiling Arab/terrorist 'looking' people. This is not how Hitler or El Duce or any other real fascist did it. He also makes way less of labeling 'liberals' than Clinton and Co. did of a 'vast, right wing conspiracy.'
1/3
4.) Supremacy of the Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
A fascist regime would never stand for a Rep. Murtha and his public stances. The constant give and take of both political use of a given leading military figures words to prove their point is impossible in a fascist regime. There would be no Wes Clark publicly challenging the 'regime' nor even a Kerry with his sketchy view of his service. And there'd absolutely be NONE of the widespread public criticism of Bush and his service record were we fascists. Add to that, our top military man under the President is a civilian, not some over decorated puppet of the regime. Lastly, our % of GDP to military spending, some 20% or so, is actually rediculously low. We were at 60% in WWII.
1/4
5.) Rampant Sexism: The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
Condi Rice. Karen Hughes. End of story. Add, if you like, that we are having a debate about gay marriage and we have over 1,000,000 abortions a year. Not exactly or even remotely indicative of fascism.
1/5
6.) Controlled Mass Media: Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
This one doesn't even warrant another word. If you like, see the endless stream of administration criticism, Micheal Moore, George Soro's etc, etc, etc.
Hell, Clinton and Co, our 'liberals', are the ones aggressively trying to get ABC to censor a movie that doesn't fit their paradigm.
1/6
7.) Obsession with National Security: Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses
Some of us can't believe any national security initiative doesn't begin with controlling our own damn borders. Some believe it not important. Fear of crashing planes is one thing. You can't be much obsessed if the front door is wide open.
1/7
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined: Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
This is the biggest stretch so far. Hitler and Mussolini, at most, used religion, but neither is noted, at all, as a man of faith. Being religious does not disqualify you from office in the US. Also, there is no ACLU in fascist regimes.
1/8
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
Tell it to Ken Lay, Worldcom, Global Crossing, Arther Anderson and that Scrushy Health South Guy.
1/9
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed: Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
This is beyond laughable. Unions were classic centers of power in fascist regimes.
1/10
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
Got me there in the disdain for intellectual elites. As for the rest, we spend unreal amounts making higher education available to anyone and we sure as hell fund the arts. Criticism is not fascisms.
1/11
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even fore go civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
Again, a laugher. Look at crime rates. Look at what it takes to get convictions.
1/12
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
Not us. Dick Cheney worked for Halliburton; it doesn't belong to him.
1/13
14. Fraudulent Elections: Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Not us. There is no fascist regime that ever won by a few hundred votes. They win landslides. Being a poor sport is not indicative of the existence of fascism.
1/14
Opinions? Thoughts?
Coventry17 said:
Here's what I hope is an acceptable baseline to discuss fascism;
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
I think we'd all have to agree that this criteria is a reality in the US today.
1/1
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
This one is absolutely NOT reality in the US today. Torture is a mole hill, it just is, in comparison to the mountain; illegal immigration. It is unthinkable that classic fascist regimes would allow much in the way of LEGAL immigration, let alone the nearly uncontrolled illegal immigration we have today.
1/2
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
This is also not happening here. Bush takes incredible strides to differentiate Islamic terrorists from Islam as a whole. We also take incredible steps to avoid stigmatizing and profiling Arab/terrorist 'looking' people. This is not how Hitler or El Duce or any other real fascist did it. He also makes way less of labeling 'liberals' than Clinton and Co. did of a 'vast, right wing conspiracy.'
1/3
4.) Supremacy of the Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
A fascist regime would never stand for a Rep. Murtha and his public stances. The constant give and take of both political use of a given leading military figures words to prove their point is impossible in a fascist regime. There would be no Wes Clark publicly challenging the 'regime' nor even a Kerry with his sketchy view of his service. And there'd absolutely be NONE of the widespread public criticism of Bush and his service record were we fascists. Add to that, our top military man under the President is a civilian, not some over decorated puppet of the regime. Lastly, our % of GDP to military spending, some 20% or so, is actually rediculously low. We were at 60% in WWII.
1/4
5.) Rampant Sexism: The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
Condi Rice. Karen Hughes. End of story. Add, if you like, that we are having a debate about gay marriage and we have over 1,000,000 abortions a year. Not exactly or even remotely indicative of fascism.
1/5
6.) Controlled Mass Media: Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
This one doesn't even warrant another word. If you like, see the endless stream of administration criticism, Micheal Moore, George Soro's etc, etc, etc.
Hell, Clinton and Co, our 'liberals', are the ones aggressively trying to get ABC to censor a movie that doesn't fit their paradigm.
1/6
7.) Obsession with National Security: Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses
Some of us can't believe any national security initiative doesn't begin with controlling our own damn borders. Some believe it not important. Fear of crashing planes is one thing. You can't be much obsessed if the front door is wide open.
1/7
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined: Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
This is the biggest stretch so far. Hitler and Mussolini, at most, used religion, but neither is noted, at all, as a man of faith. Being religious does not disqualify you from office in the US. Also, there is no ACLU in fascist regimes.
1/8
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
Tell it to Ken Lay, Worldcom, Global Crossing, Arther Anderson and that Scrushy Health South Guy.
1/9
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed: Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
This is beyond laughable. Unions were classic centers of power in fascist regimes.
1/10
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
Got me there in the disdain for intellectual elites. As for the rest, we spend unreal amounts making higher education available to anyone and we sure as hell fund the arts. Criticism is not fascisms.
1/11
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even fore go civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
Again, a laugher. Look at crime rates. Look at what it takes to get convictions.
1/12
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
Not us. Dick Cheney worked for Halliburton; it doesn't belong to him.
1/13
14. Fraudulent Elections: Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Not us. There is no fascist regime that ever won by a few hundred votes. They win landslides. Being a poor sport is not indicative of the existence of fascism.
1/14
Opinions? Thoughts?
FromTexas
This Space for Rent
ylexot said:What does any of this stuff have to do with Bush? The FCC was far more strict when I was a child.
Yes. I am still trying to figure out how the word "sh**" was said on the show I was watching on Fox the other day. Much less rear nudity, etc...
That sure would never have been show when we were kids on a public station. Much less the use of "bi***" which has become pretty common on public tv.
Otter
Nothing to see here
As it unfolded, FoxNews Morning Show, New York City 8am 9/11/2001.. (windows media player)
Streaming video, takes about 20 minutes or so before
Streaming video, takes about 20 minutes or so before