More Global Warming

[drmatsci]

Of course.
But I am open minded enough to look at the data and say its certainly possible we are the cause.

Here, tell me this looks like a stable system:
Image:Instrumental Temperature Record.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(yes, yes, I linked to Wiki, but they got it from reputable sources, I just didn't have time to find it)

The longer term graphs are more volotile, and don't seem to gradually return to a point (like a stable system)

Not that being an engineer makes an expert in climate anyway.

 

[blazinlow89]

The beloved hockey stick graph, Like you just said longer term graphs are more volatile. If humans today are the cause of a less than 2 degree average surface temperature, then how do you explain the higher than average temeperatures in the past. This is before cars, power plants, CO2 emissions.

From this graph everything is right where it should be

CO2 vs Temperature: Last 400,000 years

I also seen another graph showing the correlation between CO2 and average temperature, it showed higher temperature's with lower CO2 levels. I will try to find the graph again.

Here is another graph that is talking about Gore's Data.

The inconvenient truth about the Ice core Carbon Dioxide Temperature Correlations | ScienceBits

I love graphs

Kerplunk - Common sense from Down Under: More nails in the CO2 as primary forcing agent coffin

 

[ylexot]

What I have been saying is that a little push will cuase the climate to shift and run away radically, just like your third defintion.

Define "little push".

I don't think pendulum is a good description of the past climate - more like "changes wildly over time" - its been hot, its been cold, but certainly not like a rythmic pendulum.

I never said that a simple pendulum was a good model for the climate. It was an example of dynamic stability (something that is stable, yet moves)

I do agree we really can't know for 100% unless we are gone.

I never said that either. I said that the only way that we could not effect climate is if we're gone.

I have a BS in materials engineering and a MS in systems engineering.
Neither ever taught me to spell well... You?

AE and SE. I've had entire classes on stability and control.

But this really a battle of opinion - I think its a unstable system and you think its stable. It would be difficult to prove either way.

Not really. You just don't understand the difference between dynamic systems and unstable systems.

 

[drmatsci]

So you are certain climate is a stable system? It doesn't look like stability to me based on the graphical data. You can accuse me all you want of not knowing what stable 'is' but you haven't said that data looks stable to you.

As a stability expert, tell me our climate is stable based on all the data.

Looking at the graph from the post before, the CO2 levels spike way higher than ever before. Did you see the green line way up on the left side of the graph? It looks much higher than on the rest of the graph. How does that equate to 'normal' for you? And the jumps in Co2 through history were accompanied by higher temps - can't wait to see if this one does.

As far as the blog post, it is interesting, but its hardly a technical paper presented by a scientist - its a blog.

 

[blazinlow89]

Whats the difference between a guy posting a blog and Gore. Other the millions of dollars in research, nothing. YOu can manipulate results to get the effect you want, its easy to do, and the past ice core samples are not 100% right, if they think they have that perfect then why is always a range. The scientist dont know if the data they supply is true, its at best an educated guess.

From past events it seems this occurs every so often so in a sense the system is stable, how do we know that in the next 100 years it wont take a down turn and get cold, we dont.

 

[PsyOps]

And the jumps in Co2 through history were accompanied by higher temps - can't wait to see if this one does.

Oh and look, everytime the CO2 levels went up they somehow went back down again. Ever wonder why?


And life went on.

 

[ylexot]

As a stability expert, tell me our climate is stable based on all the data.

Looks extremely stable to me :shrug:

 

[drmatsci]

Good thing your not reading our engineering data...

I guess I expected more folks in So MD to be open to this topic, I guess not!

Hey, maybe in 20-30 years I'll be proved right, or wrong.

Now who will be in the white house next to set enviromental policy?

 

[ylexot]

Good thing your not reading our engineering data...

Actually, I did that for about eight years. :shrug: And I'd like to take back what I said...somewhat. It's possible that there are local instabilities, but unless you know what the forcing function is, it's impossible to say. However, hundreds of thousands of years ago, the climate was like it is today. So overall, the climate is very stable.

Also, I forgot to address this comment:

Looking at the graph from the post before, the CO2 levels spike way higher than ever before. Did you see the green line way up on the left side of the graph? It looks much higher than on the rest of the graph. How does that equate to 'normal' for you? And the jumps in Co2 through history were accompanied by higher temps - can't wait to see if this one does.

I'm confused by that link. The text says, "Today, CO2 concentrations worldwide average about 370 ppm" which corresponds with the 370 on the chart. However, the CO2 graph sources says, "2001-1958: South Pole Air Flask Data". South Pole Air Flask Data is not worldwide average data. CO2 at the poles is much lower than it is at the equator. And since I've had this discussion before, I also know that the 370 actually came from Mauna Loa:
Image:Mauna Loa Carbon Dioxide.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In case you didn't know, Hawaii is not near one of the poles. Also, Mauna Loa is on an active volcano that spews CO2. Of course, they say that they adjust for it, but I am curious how accurate their compensation is.

Finally, would you consider this to be a stable system?

 

[PsyOps]

Good thing your not reading our engineering data...

I guess I expected more folks in So MD to be open to this topic, I guess not!

Hey, maybe in 20-30 years I'll be proved right, or wrong.

Now who will be in the white house next to set enviromental policy?

You mean I was wrong in my estimation that when we see (on the charts) that CO2 levels went up eventually went back down? Please give me your engineering data that explains this?

And you're telling me when, in the past these events took thousands of years to occur will now transpire in a matter of 20 or 30 years?

I think you give way too much credit to humans.

 

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

Of course.
But I am open minded enough to look at the data and say its certainly possible we are the cause.

Here, tell me this looks like a stable system:
Image:Instrumental Temperature Record.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(yes, yes, I linked to Wiki, but they got it from reputable sources, I just didn't have time to find it)

The longer term graphs are more volotile, and don't seem to gradually return to a point (like a stable system)

Not that being an engineer makes an expert in climate anyway.

Global Warming.

Meanwhile, it's colder than ever in India.

Mercury dips to record low in Kutch, two deaths reported from Junagadh

 

[RadioPatrol]

Sorry, so you accept the earth is warming right now - but because you don't like what you have to change you don't accept that we are the cause? Or just that some of the 'leaders' are hipocritcal?

Heck, historically we are way over-do for a magnetic pole reversal anyway.
Maybe that will happen and kill us all off anyway...

Can you explain why Ice Caps on Mars are melting ............ maybe because of a solar system warming caused by the sun no man made influances

 

[PsyOps]

Can you explain why Ice Caps on Mars are melting ............ maybe because of a solar system warming caused by the sun no man made influances

No, no, no... Man, don't you get it? It's Bush. It's Bush and his countless minions aimed at destroying the universe.

 

[blazinlow89]

No, no, no... Man, don't you get it? It's Bush. It's Bush and his countless minions aimed at destroying the universe.

Thats the answer to our problems, blame it all on Bush and everything will be alright.