Moron of the Year Award

[Steve]

You've reminded me of something I heard about Cirque du Soleil today. They are starting an open-ended show in Las Vegas soon, featuring performers who will be almost naked except for thongs. The show will be titled "Zoomanity" and will focus on the human as just another animal. The show will feature no sexual overtones except for the obvious visual exposure.

Now we are back to perception again. The artistic presumption is that the human form will be revealed in a performance that will best reflect the strength, muscle tone, flexibility, etc. that is usually hidden under clothing. The venue (Las Vegas) was chosen because, well, they'll be almost nude, and that's more apt to be 'acceptible' there than anywhere else.

Now, the Olympics were universally held in the nude for the very same reasons, and probably for several other very good reasons that anyone could probably figure out. I've never heard anyone refer to the Ancient Olympics as an orgiastic festival that just happened to have athletic competition thrown in.

Don't you expect Zoomanity to open with scathing articles lamenting the moralistic decline of our country? I do. Because the critics will see the performance as overtly sexual, and nothing more.

I am no artist nor have I cultivated any sort of passion for art, in any medium. But I can envision the realism in this performance that Cirque du Soleil is trying to achieve. I think things like the CFB and the Swastika are dead symbols that people never tire of using as weapons to get across their personal agenda. I just don't think in this case that the band director was trying to make any kind of statement.

 

[Larry Gude]

Dude...

...now I am really lost.

Las Vegas shows and high school football games?

Symbols mean things, especially the swastika and given the venue, a high school football game in a town with a large Jewish community, it might be better to leave it out. We simply disagree. I don't understand why though.

I have no idea nor suspicion that the band director was trying any kind of agenda and I don't see where not using the flag pushes any other agenda. My point was that, to me, it was a bad call and he has said as much.

As fas as nudity being accepted in Vegas, they are selling what they are advertising as far as I know. Seems, again by the reaction of those who were there, that they were not ready nor real happy about the goings on in Dallas.

The Holocaust Museum in DC has all the imagery you could ever stand and, like the Vegas show, it is in its place.

Just my opinion.

 

[Steve]

Re: Dude...

Originally posted by Larry Gude
[B My point was that, to me, it was a bad call and he has said as much.[/B]

My point is that you shouldn't have to second guess decisions you have made, when they were not targeted decisions, just because people couldn't handle it. He never should have apologized, and said that he made a bad choice. He should have stood his ground and called out the half-time show for what it was: music and flags from WWII.

Period.

Its lack of spine that is leading this country to ruin. You know it and I know it. He did nothing wrong; the crowd felt it was wrong. You don't change your stance just because the mooks don't agree.

(yeah, hit me for the 'mooks' comment...)

 

[Penn]

Re: Steve...

Originally posted by Larry Gude
...I'm stuck assuming here, based on the reported crowd reaction, about the flag as they don't say which one other than the 'Nazi' flag.

In terms of accuracy...

http://flagspot.net/flags/de_his.html

...it is correct.

If they had used the German National flag...

http://123independenceday.dgreetings.com/germanreuni/flag/

...then it would have fit the theme without having the most offensive symbol in the history of man on display at a high school football game.
Show the one in the middle some time...

You got your post in before me, but this is where I have some difficulty buying all this: Why the Nazi flag?

The national flag of Germany would have done just fine, and I have to pay respect to it just as I would any other foreign country. If I'm not mistaken, that national anthem came way before Hitler, no?
My point is, without that Nazi flag, I would not necessarily associate the melody with Hitler. JMHO

 

[Bertha Venation]

Re: Re: Steve...

Originally posted by penncam
You got your post in before me, but this is where I have some difficulty buying all this: Why the Nazi flag?

The national flag of Germany would have done just fine, and I have to pay respect to it just as I would any other foreign country. If I'm not mistaken, that national anthem came way before Hitler, no?
My point is, without that Nazi flag, I would not necessarily associate the melody with Hitler. JMHO

They used the red flag w/ a swastika because it was the symbol of WWII Germany, and that was the theme of the halftime entertainment: a historical showcase of WWII-era anthems.

What do you think of it all, PC: of the halftime show, of the reaction of the crowd, of the director's apology, etc.?

 

[Penn]

Re: Re: Re: Steve...

Originally posted by Bertha Venation
They used the red flag w/ a swastika because it was the symbol of WWII Germany, and that was the theme of the halftime entertainment: a historical showcase of WWII-era anthems.

What do you think of it all, PC: of the halftime show, of the reaction of the crowd, of the director's apology, etc.?

I suppose I have bad feelings about Nazi Germany because my father was shot during WWII in France while defending her against those same Nazis, three machinegun slugs in his left leg - and he bore those scars the rest of his life.

I got to spend almost 3 years in Germany during my military career, and witnessed the fact that the skinheads still do exist in certain parts of the country. They bombed the entrance to the Oktoberfest Gardens in Munich, the second year I was there.

The slaughter of millions of Jews might have something to do with my feelings too, and I'm not even Jewish.

The use of that flag brings back a lot of memories. The basic premise of celebrating WWII participants was a noble thing, but playing the French national anthem would have made me wince!

 

[Steve]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Steve...

Originally posted by penncam
The slaughter of millions of Jews might have something to do with my feelings too, and I'm not even Jewish.

And that was my point. WWII was all about the Jews. And the Swastika that went along with their persecution.

58 years; a lifetime. Do we forget? Hell no, but there were nearly nine times that many killed before the War ended. On many different fronts, for different reasons. Thats why it is called a "World War".

But don't forget the Jews, and the Swastika...

Make free trade with Japan, rebuild it.

Free trade with China...an ally then...

And play the endless Israeli/Palestinian game...


Yes, we learned a lot as a Nation.

 

[Warron]

I have to agree with the group that thinks this is no big deal. You can't discuss the events of WWII in Europe without discussing Nazi Germany and you cant accurately present a musical event with the WWII theme without including Nazi Germany as well. I saw nothing that indicated they were praising nazi germany or giving support to any action taken during wwII. They were merely mentioning all the participants as a part of there presentation. I find it more offensive that people have blown this so far out of proportion to its significance.

 

[Hessian]

Extending the discussion...
I have been to Germany three times and stayed with my relative who was Wehrmacht....I lost at least two known relatives to the allies....

They have blanketted out that entire era...People are not allowed to broadcast music from the age, not allowed to have Nazi banners, sell war relics at Flea Markets, etc. The adults (post 1960) are tired of living under the guilt of their parents. The young are generally uninformed, unpatriotic, and unaware of any age when Germany was great...(always the aggressor & loser).
They have NO veterans days, no honor guards at cemetaries, no statues honoring any commander since WWI.

So...do we keep rubbing their nose in it after 60 years?

The HALFTIME event was obviously misunderstood and was likely not explained well.-Thus the booing & disparaging reaction.
Oddly enough If they had a Cavalry charge of reenactors in gray...the place would have erupted with cheers.

Lets face it...this generation still loves to beat up on the Nazis
(ie. Indiana Jones Movies, Mystery-Spy books...I still see it entrenched in our culture...its easy to do it because they were evil and are gone now(except for skinheads). we don't dare turn our rage on Moslems because we have to show tolerance and understanding....its OK to rant/boo/protest against something that can't respond. (its also a waste of time).

 

[Larry Gude]

The word here is...

...appropriate.

Arnold Swazagovenors dad was some kind of Nazi whatever and nobody gives a tinkers damn. That is appropriate. The son is about as pro America as you can get.

There are plenty of WWII vets, military and civilian, on all sides still living. Some with numbers tattoo'd on their forearm. My grandfather has to swallow hard because I drive a Toyota. He bombed the hell out of them and has NO problem with Nagasaki or Hiroshima. HIS ass was on the line, not some opinion shapers. He's proud enough of the rest of who I am to let this not so little thing go. By dad is the same way. He'll never own a Mercedes or a Krups coffee maker. That's appropriate.

We are not talking about Palestinians or other Arabs or Muslims in the Balkans who were on Hitlers side. We are talking about Nazi Germany. We are talking about the 'master race'. Warsaw. The final solution. Mein Kampff.

Jesus H people. There is a reason, a damn good one, people in Germany are so ashamed for so long.

I say study every last fact about Germany in a class room. I say there is some room for discretion based on that knowledge outside the classroom.

Honestly, y'all don't get a cold chill watching films of Hitler giving speeches to the masses? No reaction at all when you see pictures from Auchwitz? Normandy? Stalingrad?

 

[Steve]

Of course we all get reactions when we see footage of Nazi Germany. That doesn't relate to the fiasco at the football field. Booing the Nazi flag is one thing; forcing an apology for the halftime presentation is rediculous.

Good points Warron and Hessian.