My interest of late

[vraiblonde]

The Spanish-American War and "manifest destiny". I'm interested because of the parallels to the current Iraq War.

That's all - haven't really fleshed it out yet. Anyone interested in discussing and helping me solidify?

 

[SamSpade]

The Spanish-American War and "manifest destiny". I'm interested because of the parallels to the current Iraq War.

That's all - haven't really fleshed it out yet. Anyone interested in discussing and helping me solidify?

What parallels? From my meager recollection of history, the Spanish-American war was a terribly unfair war, triggered by an event that almost certainly wasn't Spain's fault, and had a lot of dirty hands in a totally lopsided affair.

 

[sushisamba]

What parallels? From my meager recollection of history, the Spanish-American war was a terribly unfair war, triggered by an event that almost certainly wasn't Spain's fault, and had a lot of dirty hands in a totally lopsided affair.

I think you just nailed it.

 

[Tonio]

What parallels? From my meager recollection of history, the Spanish-American war was a terribly unfair war, triggered by an event that almost certainly wasn't Spain's fault, and had a lot of dirty hands in a totally lopsided affair.

That sounds about right. I don't remember all the details, but it seemed to be colonialist ambitions in McKinley's administration combined with Hearst's warmongering. It started as a crusade to liberate Cuba from colonial rule. But we ended up as colonial rulers of the Philippines, where we fought the local population for almost 16 years.

Personally, I don't think Iraq will hold together much longer. Maybe we should just let the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds form separate nations.

 

[dustin]

The Barbary War probably more parallels the current war on terror.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripolitan_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Barbary_War

 

[Tonio]

The Barbary War probably more parallels the current war on terror.

True, but Iraq isn't part of the war on terror, in my opinion. We invaded Iraq to search for and destroy WMDs and to topple a threatening regime. People like Paul Wolfowitz believed that bringing democracy to Iraq would lead to democratic uprisings in other Middle Eastern nations.

 

[SamSpade]

True, but Iraq isn't part of the war on terror, in my opinion.

It is, in mine. What it isn't, is "the war for retribution on those bastages who killed people on 9/11". Saddam *was* in the business of exporting terror; for some reason, there are those who think the only way to do that is to hook up with bin Laden. No - you can be a part of terror all by yourself.

I look at 9/11 as the wake-up call. We finally realized we could no longer afford to wait for them to attack us. Geez, Saddam was *OPENLY* bankrolling families of suicide bombers. This wasn't even some secret that got unveiled - this was on the evening news. He was involved, and had access to dangerous weapons which he'd actually used on people. My feeling is when a man says he'll shoot you tomorrow, you shoot *him* TODAY.

 

[SamSpade]

Personally, I don't think Iraq will hold together much longer. Maybe we should just let the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds form separate nations.

We'll see. What I still read is, in most parts of the country, there's no violence and life goes on without incident. To most Iraqis, it would be like an Iraqi speculating that the US is about to plunge into utter chaos after the aftermath of Katrina, or after the Oklahoma City bombing.

I think splitting into three nations might be a solution - but in the long run, it'd be a disaster. For one, the Sunni regime would just be a Mini-Me version of Saddam's Iraq. The Shiite region would be easily overrun by Iranians. And the Kurdish region would eventually be at war with Turkey - and would lose.

 

[vraiblonde]

What parallels?

I'm still fleshing it out but:

• Cubans had been subjugated by the Spanish - tortured and thrown into prisons for speaking out against the government.
  
  Same with Iraqis.
  
• The US stood by and watched, thinking we should get involved in this somehow.
  
  Same with Iraq.
  
• The sinking of the Maine was the catalyst in the US declaring war. There is some speculation about the truth of this incident.
  
  Same with Iraq and WMD.
  
• Manifest destiny - spreading American values and democracy to other countries/territories - was a popular sentiment of that time. Although Cuba didn't become a US territory, Guam, the Phillipines and Puerto Rico did.
  
  Same now. We are definitely trying to spread Americanism and democracy to the Middle East. And while Iraq will probably not become a US territory, we'll certainly have US military bases there for years and years to come.
  
• The commercial motivation of the US going to war with Spain - stimulating the economy and industrial production.
  
  Same with Iraq.

It's interesting to note that the US has military bases all over the world, yet other countries don't have a military presence here.

Just some things I'm thinking about...

 

[SamSpade]

I'm still fleshing it out but:

• Cubans had been subjugated by the Spanish - tortured and thrown into prisons for speaking out against the government.
  
  Same with Iraqis.
• The US stood by and watched, thinking we should get involved in this somehow.
  
  Same with Iraq.
• The sinking of the Maine was the catalyst in the US declaring war. There is some speculation about the truth of this incident.
  
  Same with Iraq and WMD.
• Manifest destiny - spreading American values and democracy to other countries/territories - was a popular sentiment of that time. Although Cuba didn't become a US territory, Guam, the Phillipines and Puerto Rico did.
  
  Same now. We are definitely trying to spread Americanism and democracy to the Middle East. And while Iraq will probably not become a US territory, we'll certainly have US military bases there for years and years to come.
• The commercial motivation of the US going to war with Spain - stimulating the economy and industrial production.
  
  Same with Iraq.

I guess, from my meager perspective it always seemed as though:

Americans kind of believed that the Spanish Caribbean was theirs, by right. Its proximity to us made it "ours". Kind of like how you'd feel if Long Island belonged to RUSSIA.

We kind of turned a blind eye to whatever went on in Cuba as far as its citizenry was concerned - because it was very profitable.

Almost every bit of history suggests to me that the sinking of the Maine was a deliberately staged event - or an accident. There was no intelligent reason why Spain would want to provoke a war with the United States. If the matter had been taken to court as though it were a murder, the question would be "Motive your Honor?".

American expansionism had run out - or had it? Provoking a war with a declining European power made it all too easy. And very profitable.

NOW - I can see all these things from the major detractors of the Iraq War - but I also see connections that more closely resemble the Barbary Wars - where America fought to a standstill what amounted to piracy and banditry and refused to cave in to extortion - "Millions for defense but not one cent for tribute" - as its European counterparts were all too willing to do. You had state-sponsored crooks holding the high seas hostage unless they got paid off. And in typical European fashion, they WERE. In typical American fashion, we kicked their ass for asking.

 

[Tonio]

It is, in mine. What it isn't, is "the war for retribution on those bastages who killed people on 9/11". Saddam *was* in the business of exporting terror; for some reason, there are those who think the only way to do that is to hook up with bin Laden. No - you can be a part of terror all by yourself.

I look at 9/11 as the wake-up call. We finally realized we could no longer afford to wait for them to attack us. Geez, Saddam was *OPENLY* bankrolling families of suicide bombers. This wasn't even some secret that got unveiled - this was on the evening news. He was involved, and had access to dangerous weapons which he'd actually used on people. My feeling is when a man says he'll shoot you tomorrow, you shoot *him* TODAY.

I agree with you for the most part. I usually think of terrorism as driven by Islamist fundamentalist hatemongers. They recruit terrorists by manipulating people's sense of religious, political, and economic resentment. Their propaganda tactics aren't much different from Al Sharpton's.

I see Saddam's support of the terrorists as a marriage of convenience, since he used to be our ally. If it suited his purposes, he would have dropped them like a bad habit. He just wanted to get back at us because we were a threat to his power. He wasn't on some holy crusade. He was still a threat to us, but it was a different kind of threat. Most of the region's secular tyrants view Islamist fundamentalism as threats to their power, so they play the Islam card when they need to quell dissent.

 

[vraiblonde]

We kind of turned a blind eye to whatever went on in Cuba as far as its citizenry was concerned - because it was very profitable.

Another parallel to Iraq. During the Clinton years you had to really be paying attention to realize that being an Iraqi citizen under Saddam was no fun. The French and other UN criminals don't seem to give a crap even to this day.

Not familiar with the Barbary Wars. Maybe that will be my next interest.

 

[dustin]

Another parallel to Iraq. During the Clinton years you had to really be paying attention to realize that being an Iraqi citizen under Saddam was no fun. The French and other UN criminals don't seem to give a crap even to this day.

Not familiar with the Barbary Wars. Maybe that will be my next interest.

You make some good points Vrai. I will have to do some investigating myself on the Spanish-American War.

I supposed just about every war in history could have parallels to modern/current wars. You would think we, as a human race, would learn from our own mistakes.

 

[Bruzilla]

I checked with the folks at the DU, and they said that aside from the fact that the Spanish-American War was started by Bush and Cheney to satisfy the needs of Haliburton there aren't any real parallels.

 

[SamSpade]

I checked with the folks at the DU, and they said that aside from the fact that the Spanish-American War was started by Bush and Cheney to satisfy the needs of Haliburton there aren't any real parallels.

They need to check into the Barbary Wars, which, incidentally, Bush and Cheney ALSO started, to help Halliburton.

 

[bcp]

It would be of little suprise to find out that Isreal had something to do with this whole thing.

 

[vraiblonde]

Actually, now that I think about it, all wars are pretty much alike. Change the players and a few details and they blur into one.

I'm kind of in "follow the money" mode. Learning about the Federal Reserve and income tax implementation. Presidents and Congressmen are typically so stupid that it's hard to believe they come up with this stuff on their own or have the savvy to sell it to the People.

 

[Pete]

Actually, now that I think about it, all wars are pretty much alike. Change the players and a few details and they blur into one.

I'm kind of in "follow the money" mode. Learning about the Federal Reserve and income tax implementation. Presidents and Congressmen are typically so stupid that it's hard to believe they come up with this stuff on their own or have the savvy to sell it to the People.

Oh great, I read all that crap about the Spanish-American War for nothing. Biatch

 

[2ndAmendment]

Actually, now that I think about it, all wars are pretty much alike. Change the players and a few details and they blur into one.

I'm kind of in "follow the money" mode. Learning about the Federal Reserve and income tax implementation. Presidents and Congressmen are typically so stupid that it's hard to believe they come up with this stuff on their own or have the savvy to sell it to the People.

I think you can actually generalize it even more.

People kill people. It is a fact of life and has been going on since Cain killed Able. It will continue on different scales, individual to global war, until the end of this age.

 

[Tonio]

Do you think Iraq or any part of it will become a democracy in our lifetimes? I certainly hope it will, but I'm not optimistic about it. Unlike Europe, the Middle East never went through the Enlightenment and never had an equivalent to the Protestant Reformation. Those two vital events were critical in the development of the Western idea of freedom of conscience. Politically and socially, the region is stuck in the Middle Ages. So the only governments that Middle Eastern people can imagine are secular tyrannies and fanatical theocracies. They probably wonder why the Pope didn't order an Inquisition over "The Last Temptation of Christ."