NCAA student athletes getting paid

[SG_Player1974]

Yes and No. To say kids KNOW these things isn't accurate. No kid is recruited by a school that says "We are going to occupy all of your time so you might as well not plan on having any down time." They might discuss practice philosophys and the coach might give them the standard allowances as mandated by NCAA. But that doesn't cover their "expectations" concerning weight room time. Doesn't cover the 2 hrs a night you are to be at study hall (keep in mind "studying" doesn't always pertain to the lessons you are being taught in class either, etc.). None of that is discussed.

They also don't elaborate on the fact that in season, you are travelling and away from your "home" three nights a week, not to mention the hours on the bus when you're the away team. And most kids think their time crunch is limited to the "in season."

Call it ignorance of youth or salesmanship of a coach. But that is reality in a lot of cases.

Above this, I think it's an unreasonable expectation that kids must accept this trade off as part of their commitment to a school. Should a kid accept the constraints to his/her education while fulfilling his/her obligations while under scholarship? Should the accept not being able to generate some spending money because they have no time available to them?

Also, keep in mind, the weight of a scholarship especially on a kid whose talent in borderline is HUGE especially if it's a reality that he/she couldn't pay their way otherwise.

And you honestly do not think that the kids that were given scholarships for athletics do not already know all of this?!

I highly doubt these schools are just picking kids up from the local basketball court on the playgrounds, offering them scholarships, and crushing their dreams as you are portraying. These kids have already had to balance schedule with school. Workout times with study hall, etc.

THEY KNOW THE DRILL!!

IF they want to be paid.... then that opens the door for expectations for that pay.

"OK Lewis, we will agree to give you a 4 year ride AND pay you $1,000 per month. Don't show up for practice... FINE! Don't score at least 10ppg... FINE! Commit ANY minor crime (underage drinking, drugs, etc.) then you lose your paycheck AND your scholarship!

It will turn into pay for play... PERIOD! And you know that sometime down the line SOMEONE will complain that the other guy gets paid the same amount when THEY are doing better in the games. Its human nature. IT WILL HAPPEN. Then what do they do? Get an agent to market them to the highest paying school?

Congratulations Kentucky for winning your 17th straight national championship because you are the only ones who can afford ALL of the Blue chip players!!!

I just think paying student athletes opens up a bad can of worms and would lead to a lot more problems than just hungry students and complaining media.

 

[Larry Gude]

And you honestly do not think that the kids that were given scholarships for athletics do not already know all of this?! .

I think it is fabulous that you had that level understanding of context and implications at 18 years of age. Most 18 year olds I know nowadays just wanna smoke dope and play video games and don't even get the implications of that let alone the dynamics of being in a big time athletic program.

You can have all that. I think it an awful thing to begin with how big college sports are in terms of money and how they have so much control over the labor supply.

 

[Hannibal]

And you honestly do not think that the kids that were given scholarships for athletics do not already know all of this?!

I highly doubt these schools are just picking kids up from the local basketball court on the playgrounds, offering them scholarships, and crushing their dreams as you are portraying. These kids have already had to balance schedule with school. Workout times with study hall, etc.

THEY KNOW THE DRILL!!

IF they want to be paid.... then that opens the door for expectations for that pay.

I just think paying student athletes opens up a bad can of worms and would lead to a lot more problems than just hungry students and complaining media.

You saying "they know the deal" isn't correct at all. I also think you are thinkning of all scholoraship kids as being nationally recruited kids with definitive professional aspirations. Keep in mind, out of the vast number of scholarships awarded, only a very small fraction move on. And this idea of payment would apply to ALL NCAA players regardless of sport. At that point in your life, SOOOO many things are going on while the idea of where you want to go to college is in play. Couple that with a lot of parents who don't understand the process and things get blurred. Mom and Dad might have their own objectives (quality of school, location, safety, etc). Jr might have other lead thoughts such as how big the scholarship is, how much playing time they can expect year 1, etc. It's a mess and is very confusing.

I think you're looking at this in a manner that is far more lucrative than what I am stating. When I say "pay", I simply mean a stipend and a minor one at that. It won't be varied between schools though it might be varied by sport (and again, based on actual time commitment).

I am talking maybe $25/week (or some function of $$ per hour). I am literally talking "spending money." Enough money to grab a burger with your girl or go see a movie. Want a nice dinner? Save your stipend.

We can discuss more if need be. I enjoy the conversaiton. However, it's back to work I go.

 

[SG_Player1974]

My standpoint is that this... as we ALL know... would eventually turn into a pay-for-play system. Like I mentioned in my other post (which was oddly NOT quoted in the replies) it will most certainly turn into the best players going after the money. PERIOD!

Example: If South East Chattanooga State could find a way and afford to pay their recruits top dollar for this "stipend" what do you think the odds would be that this tiny school would be collecting some.. if not most... of the Blue chip players?

Don't you think word would get around? As soon as it gets corrupted (and you know it will) it will be 10x worse than the system in place now!

If there was a way to make it fair and balanced... I am all for it. But, I just do not see that happening. They bend/break the current rules as it is.

 

[Pete]

Don't they get paid already? A public school, tuition + room + board + books is anywhere from $20K - $30K per year. 4 years worth is $80K to $120K.

 

[SG_Player1974]

Don't they get paid already? A public school, tuition + room + board + books is anywhere from $20K - $30K per year. 4 years worth is $80K to $120K.

Yes they do... and when you take into account the possible loans and what they would cost down the road with interest for non-scholarship recipients, the costs go far higher than that.

The problem is... its not good enough! They want more. Even though they don't pay for their education, room, or possibly books... the school is supposed to feed them and pay for their date nights apparently.

 

[Larry Gude]

Don't they get paid already? A public school, tuition + room + board + books is anywhere from $20K - $30K per year. 4 years worth is $80K to $120K.

Of course they do. The question is if it is enough based on what their labor produces for the school.

 

[Monello]

Don't forget tutors. I heard that some athletes on scholarship won't take a written exam all 4 years. Somehow they are categorized as learning disabled. Then when it's time to take a test, someone reads them the test and they answer.

That would explain how Dexter Manley made it to college not being able to read.

 

[Larry Gude]

Don't forget tutors. I heard that some athletes on scholarship won't take a written exam all 4 years. Somehow they are categorized as learning disabled. Then when it's time to take a test, someone reads them the test and they answer.

That would explain how Dexter Manley made it to college not being able to read.

If it was medicine it would be labeled malpractice but for whatever reasons we seem to be fine with the exploitation of athletes AND look at them as mature, reasonable, rationale thinking people who, every step of the way say "Why, yes, I think I shall enter into this agreement whereby my services shall accrue to the benefit of the school and I whilst concern myself with mere degrees, this education thing, simple scraps of paper, really, in my post playing career as I explore my many and varied options thus freeing me to get my groove on why the grooving is good.."

The very idea of college athletics and this sham system we allow is about as unAmerican as it gets and it is so absurd that we actually worry that, absent the sham system, we'd have a, gasp, pay for play system. Perish the thought in a free market, capitalist society.

 

[Hannibal]

My standpoint is that this... as we ALL know... would eventually turn into a pay-for-play system. Like I mentioned in my other post (which was oddly NOT quoted in the replies) it will most certainly turn into the best players going after the money. PERIOD! .

I don't disagree that it COULD turn into this. However, my point is that if rules are put in place to avoid this, it SHOULDN'T happen. The "pay" shouldn't be subjective or variable. It should be the same at the top end D1 schools as it is for entry level D3 teams. This would avoid team/schools from playing the "we pay more" deal. It would be a a simple allowance that would be minimal but consistant. Call it prison wages even. If it's set up based upon an hourly rate, it could be $2.50/hr. If you are obligated to conduct team activities for 20 hrs/week, your stipend would be $50/wk. Every player on the team. Hell, you could have punch cards for all I care where you're required to sign in/out for team functions.

To avoid the corruption, rules would have to be put in place and monitored. If they can't do that, you might as well have no rules at all.

 

[Hannibal]

Don't they get paid already? A public school, tuition + room + board + books is anywhere from $20K - $30K per year. 4 years worth is $80K to $120K.

Yes and no. It seems people want to believe the term "scholarship" means all inclusive and all expenses paid. That is 100% false. Some scholarships are partial tuition. Some cover some tuition and some board (it's simply a dollar amount). Some may give you a "full ride" but it doesn't cover meal plans or books. It all depends on the deal. Schools have a set number of full scholarships avalable to them and they simply translate into dollars. 10 full scholarships x $20,000/year = $200,000 in scholarships allowed. That can be given to 20 students in full. Or 40 students at 50% and so on.

And as noted before, it's a simple business transaction. They are trading your admission for your services. Simple as that.

The caveot though has been that schools/teams often advertise one level of responsibility and ultimately reqiure another. And by the team you satisfy all your team requirments/obligations, you literally have no time to provide yourself with some means of income for simple basics. You cannot find part time work with your team schedules. Period. Point blank.

The notion of pay to athletes have been exegerated by a large population who simply see it as an "additional income." It's not at all. It's pocket change so these kids can go see a movie or eat a burger off campus. Or ####, put some money in their bank. They are deprived the oppertunity of providing their own income because their scholarship has literally made the school poor and unable to do so. You often have situations where kids may be getting a reduced cost education but don't have money to do their laundry on the weekends or put gas in their car.

 

[SG_Player1974]

To avoid the corruption, rules would have to be put in place and monitored. If they can't do that, you might as well have no rules at all.

Ummm... Don't we have rules in place with the current system already? Don't we have a lot of problems surrounding money and athletes?

Vicious Circle. All this will do is create new problems on top of the ones we currently have with college athletics.

 

[SG_Player1974]

The caveot though has been that schools/teams often advertise one level of responsibility and ultimately reqiure another. And by the team you satisfy all your team requirments/obligations, you literally have no time to provide yourself with some means of income for simple basics. You cannot find part time work with your team schedules. Period. Point blank.

The notion of pay to athletes have been exegerated by a large population who simply see it as an "additional income." It's not at all. It's pocket change so these kids can go see a movie or eat a burger off campus. Or ####, put some money in their bank. They are deprived the oppertunity of providing their own income because their scholarship has literally made the school poor and unable to do so. You often have situations where kids may be getting a reduced cost education but don't have money to do their laundry on the weekends or put gas in their car.

What is the difference between what you are saying here and, lets say... an Advertising agent that puts in extra hours at work to get a large business deal done that will make the company a lot of money?

Does that ad man have the right to go into his boss' office and demand more money because he had to work a few hours late and wanted something "extra" to put in his gas tank or to take his wife out to dinner?

 

[Hannibal]

Ummm... Don't we have rules in place with the current system already? Don't we have a lot of problems surrounding money and athletes?

Vicious Circle. All this will do is create new problems on top of the ones we currently have with college athletics.

Yes, the NCAA is jackd up for a multitude of reasons. I 100% agree with that for numerous reasons. That's another topic of conversation though. It doesn't mean because they can't manage themselves that the concept of "pay" for NCAA players is automatically a bad idea.

 

[Hannibal]

What is the difference between what you are saying here and, lets say... an Advertising agent that puts in extra hours at work to get a large business deal done that will make the company a lot of money?

Does that ad man have the right to go into his boss' office and demand more money because he had to work a few hours late and wanted something "extra" to put in his gas tank or to take his wife out to dinner?

Several differences - the ad agent is compensated in the form of salary (I assume) for his services. He understands that additional hours may be required in some instances but he also has the benifit of having weeks/pay periods where less hours are demanded. He also has the oppertunity for comission and/or bonus as a reward for his extra efforts. More so, he is pursuing work in a free market whereas if his pay doesn't equal his hours - he/she can find work elsewhere. That doesn't apply for NCAA players. They get paid nothing regardless of the hours demanded.

 

[SG_Player1974]

Several differences - the ad agent is compensated in the form of salary (I assume) for his services. So is the college athlete. Its called the scholarship. He understands that additional hours may be required in some instances but he also has the benifit of having weeks/pay periods where less hours are demanded. So does the college athlete. Its called the off season. And they understand about additional hours... unless they just never played the sport until college. He also has the oppertunity for comission and/or bonus as a reward for his extra efforts. Not always. More so, he is pursuing work in a free market whereas if his pay doesn't equal his hours - he/she can find work elsewhere. That doesn't apply for NCAA players. Correct me if I am wrong but.. don't NCAA athletes have a choice to transfer to different schools? They get paid nothing regardless of the hours demanded. I don't get paid for the overtime that I work. I know LOTS of people who put in extra time with no compensation.

Answers in red

 

[Hannibal]

Answers in red

I am starting to question where your basis for responses comes from. It seems you have a mindset based on how you perceive things to happen.

1. Ad agent can negotiate salary with multiple agencies before signing on. Athlete is negotiating with "fake money" - it's more or less an offset of "fake costs."
2. If an agent determines their income doesn't cover their basic necessities/other, they can reduce their spending. An athlete cannot. Their choice is to not put gas in their car or wash their clothes (or others).
3. There are expenses to the athlete that a scholarship does not cover (some noted in #2). This is the delta/gap I am referring to. And to be clear, I am not talking about elective expenses (buying that new watch). I am talking about gas money, lunch money, laundry money, etc.
4. You are foolish if you think the time required of the athlete is that much reduced in the offseason. I agree more time is required in season, but offseason especially in a competative school requires A LOT of time (and not just limited to physical activity).
5. Athletes do have the ability to transfer. However, in MOST situations, you are penalized for utilizing that option. An
6. I fall into that same situation (am salaried and don't get paid OT). That is part of the deal I accepted. However, you are failing to see the obligation of the student athlete, whereas they are obligated to such an extensive amount of time that they don't have the ABILITY to generate any cash.

All in all, scholarships are intended to offset cost of education/attendance in a mutually benificial arrangement. It does NOTHING in terms of cash. An analogy would be a vehicle agreement where your company cuts you a check each month to pay your car note if you use your vehicle for business use. It's an offset to an expense. Assuming your vehicle is your only cost consideration and that your monthly stipend is your only income, while your costs are covered, you don't have a dollar to your name to actually put gas in it. You still need some level of "cash" in hand to cover incidentals.

And with the student-athlete and the requirements/demands of the team, you do not have the ability to acquire that cash. Speaking from experience, you do not have enough time available to you work. Certianly not in season and often times - not offseason. You are more or less held hostage by your scholarship. And since that scholarship is a means for some people to attend school (at least money wise), the notion of "simply don't play" doesn't cut it.

 

[Larry Gude]

And with the student-athlete and the requirements/demands of the team, you do not have the ability to acquire that cash. Speaking from experience, you do not have enough time available to you work. Certianly not in season and often times - not offseason. You are more or less held hostage by your scholarship. And since that scholarship is a means for some people to attend school (at least money wise), the notion of "simply don't play" doesn't cut it.

As in most things, it boils down to a question of balance. At some point, the deal of scholarship for play was in a natural balance whereby what the kid is getting and what the school is getting are fairly reasonable. Nowadays, the demands on all that money big time sports generate from interests that have nothing to do with the big time sport and it's natural fan base has been distorted beyond recognition of a college player 30-40 50 years ago. Going back to Penn State and the $50 mil a year football brings in, 88 kids, the school is earning over $500,000 per kid. Assuming it costs them $100,000 a kid for everything including travel, that's a labor rate of less than 20%. Restaurant labor costs are about 35%.

It's out of balance.

 

[SG_Player1974]

I'm sorry but I just don't see it.

An 18 year old kid is being offered, in effect, $100,000-200,000 to attend classes, play a sport, prepare for that sport, train, maintain conditioning, and whatever else they need to do in order to play and learn.

Bottom line is.... if they don't like the terms then they can feel free to turn it down or go elsewhere. PERIOD!

I just don't buy the whole "I didn't know how much time it would take." or "Its so hard balancing everything and I can't even take my girlfriend out" routine.

And to Larry.... your comment about the $50 million and the labor quota ONLY applies to Penn State. Let's go ahead and average that out against ALL Div-1A colleges and come up with a number. I will guarantee you it will be a far cry less and will bring those labor rates more into focus.

 

[Hannibal]

I'm sorry but I just don't see it.

An 18 year old kid is being offered, in effect, $100,000-200,000 to attend classes, play a sport, prepare for that sport, train, maintain conditioning, and whatever else they need to do in order to play and learn.

Bottom line is.... if they don't like the terms then they can feel free to turn it down or go elsewhere. PERIOD!

I just don't buy the whole "I didn't know how much time it would take." or "Its so hard balancing everything and I can't even take my girlfriend out" routine.

And to Larry.... your comment about the $50 million and the labor quota ONLY applies to Penn State. Let's go ahead and average that out against ALL Div-1A colleges and come up with a number. I will guarantee you it will be a far cry less and will bring those labor rates more into focus.

You need to (if not already) temper your thoughts to not only the BIG D1 schools but to also the smaller D2/D3 schools. In some instances, you aren't being paid anything in any definition of the word (D3). I played both (one before an arm injury and one after) an can attest that the D3 school required as much of my time as the D1. And throughout it, I was basically a poor college kid.

They don't detail this when they are recruiting you. At best, your head is filled with visions of championships and warm sunny days on the ballfield. The reality is two a day practices, weight room schedules, study hall requirements, etc. The worst days were when practice would run late and you couldn't get into the cafeteria. You were on your own digging for pocket change to hit up 7-11 with for some nachos.

Your scholarship doesn't pay you in "cash". At best, you are given tuition and potentially some room/board and some meal plan. So what do you do for the things you need physical cash for? As I said: gas in your tank, washing machines, a soda at 7-11?

When I was a freshman, I tried to get a part time job. There were furniture warehouses everywhere (North Carolina furniture district). Signs up all the time looking for work. Go apply. Tell them you have the restriction of school commitments/practice (even offseason), etc. and they want nothing to do with you. Even Circle K wouldn't hire me (and several teammates).

There is a trade off at play here. And it's out of balance. Paying out (again a small amount) covers one hurdle. Then you can get into academic impacts. Someone still needs to tell me how you can carry 18 credit hours in a semester while allowing enough time for the actual class, required study, practice, study hall (again, not studying school material), other team obligations, etc. Gets worse in season when you're travelling. Try studying for that 400 level engineering course while riding 6 hours on a bus so you can take the test early when you get back into town (cause the professor's certainly won't let you take it late and you'll be 'away' on the scheduled test date).

Again, don't equate scholarships with "future professinals" or blue chips. That is a VERY small fraction of people and too often, special "things" are done to accomodate them (and that's BS). The VAST majority of kids are using their talent to obtain an education that wouldn't otherwise be afforded to them and it's too often impacted because of unbalanced expectations of their time.