Nice to know ones enemy...

[Larry Gude]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

Please, read this, for anyone unsure of what we are up against or why.

 

[vraiblonde]

Particularly enlightening is his answer to the question: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? It's about halfway down the page.

Hey, Dems - he mentions Clinton by name. You may want to take a look.

 

[SamSpade]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Particularly enlightening is his answer to the question: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? It's about halfway down the page.

Yup - his FIRST request, which is part of his second and several further down - that we all convert to Islam. We have to become Muslim, or this follower of the religion of peace will kill us all.

Sometimes I think maybe Ann Coulter ISN'T being over the top with her rhetoric regarding Islam.

 

[Tonio]

Osama leads off with Israel and the Palestinians and goes on for for several paragraphs. He's really playing to an Arab and Muslim audience, not an American one. The Muslim world has seen more change in the past 80 years than in the previous 1,000 years. That kind of anxiety and uncertainly gives bloodthirsty fanatics like bin Laden plenty of opportunity to attract malcontents as his followers. Not much different from the circumstances that brought Hitler and Stalin and Mussoulini to power.

I agree with Ken King that the Palestinians eventually need their own nation on the West Bank. Israel can do this without rewarding the terrorists, or "pulling a Spain" if you like. Sooner or later, Israel has to decide whether ruling over the Palestinians is more trouble than it's worth. I believe that the current situation only gives the malcontents in the Muslim world more reason to listen to bin Laden.

 

[Hessian]

I really hope this isn't a surprise to all of you forumites.
However, what percentage of America is generally unaware of this brazen threat?
How many are aware that he has been spewing this attitude for years?
How many are aware that there are thousands of militant Moslems within the US that savor these words like sautee'd Goat?

Did you notice the famous liberal tactic of trying to incite a race war, or class war within America?...Is Bin Laden reading the DU daily?

"Blastings upon you, and upon your scarred Krayon (Tigger translates Bin Ladin)

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by Hessian
I really hope this isn't a surprise to all of you forumites.

Not to me. One of the reasons I love America's religious freedom is that it gives bin Laden fits. He'll never understand that democracy and freedom of religion are the best hope for the human race.

 

[Larry Gude]

Dude...

...did you miss the point???

Sooner or later, Israel has to decide whether ruling over the Palestinians is more trouble than it's worth. I believe that the current situation only gives the malcontents in the Muslim world more reason to listen to bin Laden.

OBL:

v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

You know where Israel is, right?

 

[Larry Gude]

Hess...

Did you notice the famous liberal tactic of trying to incite a race war, or class war within America?...Is Bin Laden reading the DU daily?

Actuall, I picked up this link from a DU thread. I'd read Osama's decrees as he issued them but I thought it would be a good refresher.

There is one lone person on the DU thread who thought it would be important, as progressives, for DU'ers to discuss Osama's opposition to homosexuality and many other things.

He/she is fighting in vain as all the 'progessives' wanna talk about is how Falwell and Robertson and all the rest are EXACTLY like Osama save for a few 'minor' differences.

They have no clue that a dope smoking, gay atheists gambler who paints pictures of religious symbols in jars of urine (aka "progessive") is who Osama most violently opposes.

They hate W so much that they damn near support Osama like they do Hussein.

Amazing.

 

[Tonio]

Of course bin Laden wants to destroy Israel. He doesn't speak for all Arabs or all Muslims, although he certainly thinks so.

I've said before that the only possible solution to Israel/Palestine is for Israel to return to something resembling its pre-1967 borders, leaving the West Bank and Gaza for the Palestinians. At this point, it doesn't matter who started the conflict.

What Israel has right now is an angry and resentful colonial population living within its borders, giving the militants and extremists more justification for their murderous actions. Is that what Ariel Sharon really wants for his country? Sure, he should certainly destroy terrorists like Sheik Ahmed Yassin. My point is that as long as the Palestinians don't have their own nation, Israel will have to contend with generation after generation of Yassins. Israel is only sowing dragon's teeth. Even Britain that the root of the Troubles in Ireland was that the Irish didn't rule themselves.

 

[Tonio]

Re: Hess...

Originally posted by Larry Gude
There is one lone person on the DU thread who thought it would be important, as progressives, for DU'ers to discuss Osama's opposition to homosexuality and many other things.

He/she is fighting in vain as all the 'progessives' wanna talk about is how Falwell and Robertson and all the rest are EXACTLY like Osama save for a few 'minor' differences.

Good point. While the Christian fundamentalists share some similarities with the Islamic fundamentalists on sexual issues, the DU needs a sense of perspective. Falwell and Robertson would never order followers to fly airplanes into buildings to kill thousands. (They did make the "You made this happen" comment after 9/11, which was hateful and disgusting, but not murderous.)

I would tell the DU that a democracy is always going to have a more open attitude about sexuality than a theocracy like the Taliban. It should be obvious to them that bin Laden is opposed to human freedom in all its forms.

 

[Larry Gude]

TONIO!!!

Of course bin Laden wants to destroy Israel. He doesn't speak for all Arabs or all Muslims, although he certainly thinks so.

...you get it...

I've said before that the only possible solution to Israel/Palestine is for Israel to return to something resembling its pre-1967 borders, leaving the West Bank and Gaza for the Palestinians

...but you don't!!!

Remember Danny Pearls execution? Maybe you don't understand the depth of anti-semitism.

Israeli's look at Arabs as inferiors. Arabs look at Jews as the devil.

They want Israel...GONE.

A far a the DU goes, they are a religion unto themselves. To prove it, all you gott do is mention something outside of their sacrements and BLAMMO, you're a 'freeper' or some other idiot and just 'don't get it'.

 

[Hessian]

Tolerance

Religious tolerance is painted with bizarre colors from the Left.

The error comes from their horrible lack of understanding of religious history in America that has been taught since the 1960's.
Free Speech? Originated in england right?
No, it came from the congregational town meetings of New England.
Democracy: From Greece right? No, from the Rights offered to the Burgesses and evolving from the generation after Winthop (who did favor theocracy)
Religious Toleration? Not in England! Rather in Rhode Island in the 1630's and in Maryland by 1649.
Open debate of Ideas? Among the Dutch universities that came alive in the Reformation as they debated the tenets of Calvin, Arminius and Erasmus.
A desire for all believers to live in Harmony...not likely in the turmoil of England but we find it among the pillars that supported Penn's colony.

So, with diverse faiths, mixed cultures of Germans and Dutch and Scottish & Welsh, and yes even Jews (In New Amesterdam) and Hugenots (sp) stretching from the Carolinas to New England we were blessed to labor together and TOLERATE each other's beliefs.
So...please don't go into the "threat from the religious right" who want to install a theocracy, snoop into everyone's life like Nazi's, and demand censorship over everthing. It is such a bizarre viewpoint it reveals a lack of understanding regarding our pluralistic origins.

Islam? Well, that is a distinctly different story.

 

[Tonio]

Re: TONIO!!!

Originally posted by Larry Gude
Remember Danny Pearls execution? Maybe you don't understand the depth of anti-semitism.

Israeli's look at Arabs as inferiors. Arabs look at Jews as the devil.

They want Israel...GONE.

I was trying to avoid generalizing about all Arabs and all Jews. If you're right that they hate each other that much, can the US at least convince them with military force to leave us the phuque alone, and fight their holy wars by themselves? Extremists on both sides have been using terrorism in the Holy Land since the 1920s. The Arab nations were somewhat friendly with us until we started being fervently pro-Israel around the time of the Yom Kippur War in 1973.

 

[Tonio]

Re: Tolerance

Originally posted by Hessian
The error comes from their horrible lack of understanding of religious history in America that has been taught since the 1960's.
Free Speech? Originated in england right?
No, it came from the congregational town meetings of New England.
Democracy: From Greece right? No, from the Rights offered to the Burgesses and evolving from the generation after Winthop (who did favor theocracy)
Religious Toleration? Not in England! Rather in Rhode Island in the 1630's and in Maryland by 1649.
Open debate of Ideas? Among the Dutch universities that came alive in the Reformation as they debated the tenets of Calvin, Arminius and Erasmus.
A desire for all believers to live in Harmony...not likely in the turmoil of England but we find it among the pillars that supported Penn's colony.

So, with diverse faiths, mixed cultures of Germans and Dutch and Scottish & Welsh, and yes even Jews (In New Amesterdam) and Hugenots (sp) stretching from the Carolinas to New England we were blessed to labor together and TOLERATE each other's beliefs.

Some good stuff there. Thanks for mentioning Winthop's theocratic views. Some of his fellow Puritans also took over Maryland's colonial government for a brief time and attempted to stamp out Catholicism here.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Tonio
The Arab nations were somewhat friendly with us until we started being fervently pro-Israel around the time of the Yom Kippur War in 1973.

I get incredibly tired of people trying to pretend that the US is somehow at fault for the bad blood between Israel and Arab nations. And I also find it tedious when people try to pretend the Israelis instigated anything.

Eqypt and Syria launched a surprise attack on Israel during Yom Kippur/Ramadan, which was a no no. The agreement was that both factions would refrain from warfare during these religious holidays. But nooooo......the Ay-rabs saw an opportunity to catch the Israelis with their guard down and they took it.

So if that was indeed when the US started favoring Israel, it's the Arabs own fault. The Palestinians bawl their eyes out to any lib nutball that will listen to them about how "all they want" is a return to pre-1967 border lines. We know this is crap because it was offered to them at the Camp David summit and Arafat gave them the finger and walked out.

So pizz on them. I hope Sharon gets Arafat, too.

 

[SuperGrover]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
I get incredibly tired of people trying to pretend that the US is somehow at fault for the bad blood between Israel and Arab nations. And I also find it tedious when people try to pretend the Israelis instigated anything.

Eqypt and Syria launched a surprise attack on Israel during Yom Kippur/Ramadan, which was a no no. The agreement was that both factions would refrain from warfare during these religious holidays. But nooooo......the Ay-rabs saw an opportunity to catch the Israelis with their guard down and they took it.

So if that was indeed when the US started favoring Israel, it's the Arabs own fault. The Palestinians bawl their eyes out to any lib nutball that will listen to them about how "all they want" is a return to pre-1967 border lines. We know this is crap because it was offered to them at the Camp David summit and Arafat gave them the finger and walked out.

So pizz on them. I hope Sharon gets Arafat, too.

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AN ISSUE THAT I AGREE WITH VRAI ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HE|| MUST BE FROZEN NOW

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
I get incredibly tired of people trying to pretend that the US is somehow at fault for the bad blood between Israel and Arab nations. And I also find it tedious when people try to pretend the Israelis instigated anything.

Eqypt and Syria launched a surprise attack on Israel during Yom Kippur/Ramadan, which was a no no. The agreement was that both factions would refrain from warfare during these religious holidays. But nooooo......the Ay-rabs saw an opportunity to catch the Israelis with their guard down and they took it.

So if that was indeed when the US started favoring Israel, it's the Arabs own fault. The Palestinians bawl their eyes out to any lib nutball that will listen to them about how "all they want" is a return to pre-1967 border lines. We know this is crap because it was offered to them at the Camp David summit and Arafat gave them the finger and walked out.

So pizz on them. I hope Sharon gets Arafat, too.

Don't get me wrong--I wasn't blaming the US for the conflict. I was suggesting that we didn't show good judgment by trying to take sides in a holy war.

And certainly, Arafat has plenty of blood on his hands, and I wouldn't weep for his death. I suspect he turned down the Camp David proposals for purely self-serving reasons. An independent Palestine on the West Bank would mean the end of his own power as a terrorist leader, because he wouldn't have the Israeli rule over the Palestinians as an excuse to stir up hatred.

I say Israel should vacate the West Bank AND go after the terrorists with all guns blazing. This is a two-front war. Vacating the West Bank certainly won't end the terrorism. I say the current situation will only lead to even more terrorism, no matter how much force Israel uses. That's because the Palestinian population in Israel will soon outnumber the country's Jewish citizens. Does the name Custer mean anything to Ariel Sharon?

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Tonio
I was suggesting that we didn't show good judgment by trying to take sides in a holy war.

And I think the ONLY time we show good judgement with this situation is when we side wholeheartedly with Israel against the Palestinians.

There was a time when I thought Israel should back off a bit. The Camp David summit showed me that the Palestianians would NEVER accept ANY kind of peace agreement. So now I think we should align big time with the Israelis and smash the hostiles like they so richly deserve.

If you think any of the Arabs are interested in getting bin Laden, you're dreaming. They like having him do their dirty work so they can sit back and go "tut tut...well whad joo know aboud dat?"

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
If you think any of the Arabs are interested in getting bin Laden, you're dreaming. They like having him do their dirty work so they can sit back and go "tut tut...well whad joo know aboud dat?"

I'm not going to write off every Arab in the world as evil. That's what bin Laden wants the Arab world to believe, that the US is out to kill all Arabs. Phuque him. I don't want that murdering, hateful ambulatory piece of offal to be right about ANYTHING.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Tonio
I'm not going to write off every Arab in the world as evil.

I don't believe the Arab citizens are evil at all - just their government and their brain-washing religious leaders. And, frankly, evil might not be a good word. They're just looking after their own interests, business as usual. It just so happens that their agenda doesn't coincide with ours and, while we're content to let them be, they're not content to let us be.