NSA phone record database

[Penn]

Speaking of not having a clue.....your example :
For example, suspected terrorist phone number X calls phone number Y.
A suspected terrorist is not a requirement for this data mining. If it were, there would be no argument from me. Go find yourself another clue.

Are we mincing words here?

If my understanding is correct, suspected terrorists is what they're on the lookout for.

The NSA probably has a database of foreign - suspected terrorist phone numbers, so why is it so difficult to understand that they would want to track these calls that are being made from, or by the owners of these particular phone numbers?

 

[willie]

That is exactly what they are looking for but they are looking in EVERYONE's closet. If they mined for known bad people in the USA calling me then I would fully expect to be elevated to a "monitor" list. Any slip of the tongue while conversing with another law abiding citizen can get big brother real deep into your life. Ever hear any of those IRS horror stories of power hungry IRS agents ruining lives? This type of surveillance put all of us at the mercy of some unkown paper shuffler. I don't think you guys know what you're asking for, trusting these gov't agencys with such blind faith. Richard Jewell comes to mind. Both party's in the phone call are scrutinized regardless of age, sex, political affiliation, etc. etc.

 

[dustin]

I was involved in creating some ADHOC's for one of our query programs we run at a command multiple times a day. it scans thousands of records in already existing databases in a matter of seconds and updates any changes to our program's main database.

this is with standard NALCOMIS terminals.

I'm sure the NSA has something similar, but on a much much larger scale. And the NSA has some very smart programmers working for them I'm sure.

this is nothing more than using suspected terrorist numbers as a filter to bounce against the millions of numbers dialed each day to see if there is a match. once a match is found a warrant is issued to investigate further...just like on Law and Order.

 

[vraiblonde]

Ever hear any of those IRS horror stories of power hungry IRS agents ruining lives?

You just said the magic words. I've heard those stories as well, but my personal interactions with the IRS says they're reasonable and will work with you. And I've had several oopsies, both in business and personal, that they could have really made me miserable over. The IRS is easier to deal with than my credit card company.

So I think a lot of this concern is unwarranted. I don't think you talking about getting bombed or blasted at Tiki will trigger an investigation. Like Yle said, all they're doing is tracking phone numbers, not actual conversations. If they have no reason to suspect you, I doubt you'll get any attention whatsoever.

 

[willie]

this is nothing more than using suspected terrorist numbers as a filter to bounce against the millions of numbers dialed each day to see if there is a match. once a match is found a warrant is issued to investigate further...just like on Law and Order.

If this part is actually the case then I'm all for it BUT all of the supposed original documents I have read state that they start with no filters. The only reference I've seen to "known terroris only" is talking heads like Glenn Beck, Spencer whatshisname and forum sources that all ASSume they are only including terrorist. If anyone can come up with a reliable original source that says me and Charley's wife are not included in this then I'm a convert. These people saying go ahead and listen to my call, I've nothing to hide are full of crap. You might be proud of your stance on all of your beliefs but some of your beliefs might just PO a gov't screener.

 

[Larry Gude]

Willie...

That is exactly what they are looking for but they are looking in EVERYONE's closet. If they mined for known bad people in the USA calling me then I would fully expect to be elevated to a "monitor" list. Any slip of the tongue while conversing with another law abiding citizen can get big brother real deep into your life. Ever hear any of those IRS horror stories of power hungry IRS agents ruining lives? This type of surveillance put all of us at the mercy of some unkown paper shuffler. I don't think you guys know what you're asking for, trusting these gov't agencys with such blind faith. Richard Jewell comes to mind. Both party's in the phone call are scrutinized regardless of age, sex, political affiliation, etc. etc.

...what you are suggesting is that when anyone, ANYONE, criminal or not, throws out smoke signals that the government is required to ignore them UNTIL you or I or someone else becomes a suspect based on having ALREADY committed a criminal or hostile act.

So, there sits the smoke signal; 'blow up the building tomorrow' and the signal can, literally, be seen by ANYONE, and the government, charged with providing for the common defense, is to ignore that one and another smoke signal that says 'got it' and then wait for the next smoke signal, the smoke from a burning building, to start chasing down leads, such a s smoke signals it was required to ignore, which are now...dissapated.

You are saying the government MUST have that handicap because the signal might have been in regards to a video game or an idea for a movie or a miscommunication because the alternative, harassing an innocent person is NOT worth providing for the common defense.

The President is to provide for the common defense. He is not tasked with providing for the common retaliation. He can, clearly, act pre-emptivley. Common sense says that. The Constitution says that.

This is an issue of better 100 innocent men go to jail than one guilty man go free because that one guilty man can kill millions.

We can deal with the 100 innocent men falsely accused just as we do now. We CAN improve that. We CAN strive for perfection. We can do nothing about the one person we missed because we want to protect me from cheating on my wife or dealing drugs or saying outrageous things about the government.

There is a point where the fence around me protects me too much, at the expense of my neighbor.

That's just my opinion.

 

[willie]

...

There is a point where the fence around me protects me too much, at the expense of my neighbor.

That's just my opinion.

I appreciate your opinion and fully understand YOUR point of view even though it differs from mine. I happen to like that "fence" around me but I also realize that the very instant I'm associated with anyone with bad intentions, that fence is history. Until they make that association, leave my innocent butt alone.

 

[ylexot]

Speaking of not having a clue.....your example :
For example, suspected terrorist phone number X calls phone number Y.
A suspected terrorist is not a requirement for this data mining. If it were, there would be no argument from me. Go find yourself another clue.

You're still clueless. Fine, I'll take it another step. Suspected terrorist phone number X calls phone number Y. Then phone number Y calls phone numbers A, B, C, D, and E. Of course you don't know that because, like an idiot, you only asked for records relating to phone number X. Now you have to ask for records relating to phone number Y. Woops, now you found out that you have to look at the records for A, B, C, D, and E. Etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. So, how do you speed the process? Ask for ALL phone logs. BFD! Now the NSA knows that my phone number calls my ISP's phone number!

 

[Larry Gude]

I guess what I'm trying to say...

I appreciate your opinion and fully understand YOUR point of view even though it differs from mine. I happen to like that "fence" around me but I also realize that the very instant I'm associated with anyone with bad intentions, that fence is history. Until they make that association, leave my innocent butt alone.

...is that the fence is an illusion to begin with. I would suspect that as long as it has been technologically possible, the federal government has been doing what most would call eavesdropping on us all to some extent or other.

Just like a smoke signal which, digital communication is THERE. I mean, in the days of analog it simply wasn't possible to tap 1,000,000 phones and record and analyze conversations and try and find one bad guy talking to another. You had to be specific because of the technology; tap THAT phone. Now and for the last, what, 20 years, it is possible to tap, record and analyze and get something meaningful out of it and, to me, therefore being done.

Sure, it's protected, buried on tapes and hard drives and not exactly readily available to your neighbor (who has been listening to your phone conversations on his scanner for years) and none of it is likely to ever see the light of day, but, how could a government have the ability to record information that one day MAY be important and not do it?

Everyone remembers Richard Nixon as THE secret recording guy but that's because he made it public. It had been going since it was possible; LBJ, Kennedy, maybe Eisenhower.

I won't call you naive and maybe I'm being cynical, but, all we're really talking about, in my opinion, is saying the words or passing a law that makes you feel better; it won't change what they are doing.

 

[harleygirl]

Interesting article.......

FBI Acknowledges: Journalists Phone Records are Fair Game
May 15, 2006 7:18 PM

The FBI acknowledged late Monday that it is increasingly seeking reporters' phone records in leak investigations.

"It used to be very hard and complicated to do this, but it no longer is in the Bush administration," said a senior federal official.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/05/fbi_acknowledge.html

 

[pixiegirl]

See, that's what I don't understand when people get all kirked out over being "spied on". Practically everything you do is in a database somewhere. SMECO can see how much electricity you've used, Verizon can track your phone calls. your ISP can see what websites you visit.

Who cares if the government knows, too? It's not like it's some big secret.

I agree. I for one am not at all bothered by "big brother". Follow my ass 24/7, I have nothing to hide. :shrug: I've birthed two children and had a doctor have her hands up my crotch; really you don't get any more private or violated then that. Listen to my calls, watch my every flippin move, if it makes my kids safer I'm ok with it.