papal infallibility

[Radiant1]

As requested.

Infallibility is not...

1. Infallibility is not the absence of sin. - Infalliblity is not to be confused with impeccability. Every Pope from the Apostle Peter on to this day would tell you that he was/is a sinner.

2. Infalliblity is not necessarily reserved for the Pope alone. - Infallibilty is had by the Pope but only when solemnly defined and in agreement with bishops the world over as an ecclesial body and when all concur on a single viewpoint of faith and morals only -- not disciplinary decisions, not private theological opinions, not private comments.

3. Infallible pronouncements are not made up out of thin air. - Doctrines defined by the Pope when speaking infallibly in union with the world's bishops are not done so unless the doctrine has been called into question (during the Reformation for example) and are articles of faith that have always been believed from the beginning.

Infallibilty is...

Infallibilty is the guarantee that when the Pope does speak solemnly in union with the world's bishops and "from the Chair of Peter" in faith and morals it cannot be in error.

 

[Starman3000m]

Infallibilty is the guarantee that when the Pope does speak solemnly in union with the world's bishops and "from the Chair of Peter" in faith and morals it cannot be in error.

Have there been any papal orders, historically, in faith and morals, that the RCC has had to apologize for and declare an "oversight" or "mistake of the leadership" ?

 

[ItalianScallion]

Infallibilty is the guarantee that when the Pope does speak solemnly in union with the world's bishops and "from the Chair of Peter" in faith and morals it cannot be in error.

What if he sits in his magic chair and agrees with every bishop but contradicts the Bible on something? Or does that never happen? What's the use? Have fun Starman, it never ends.

 

[Starman3000m]

What if he sits in his magic chair and agrees with every bishop but contradicts the Bible on something? Or does that never happen? What's the use? Have fun Starman, it never ends.

Agreed, ItalianScallion, it will never really ever end. Even the Holy Bible says so.

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
(2 Timothy 3:7)

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry." (2 Timothy 4:3-5)

I have the same response from Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc, - all who believe their "church" and "church leadership" is "Divinely Inspired."

BTW: When I was in my spiritual search for God's Truth, I attended several types of denominational churches. Quite an experience! The jist of this is that I was almost "convinced" that the Mormon Church was the best one to join because of such "sincerity in faith " and family values displayed by Mormon friends. Here is a short testimony about how God helped me see that the Mormon Doctrine was not true:

First: You may have already seen my posted testimony at
http://www.christian-faith.com/testimonies/mike-ramirez.html
of how my wife and I became born again believers through accepting Y'shua ha Mashiach (New Testament Jesus)
It was prior to our conversion when I was searching for God that I almost fell for the deceptive claim that the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" was the "true church".

I had a little bit of Biblical knowledge at that time but the missionaries appeared to know everything about the "Bible" and about living right for God. Boy, that's what I wanted and was eager to learn.

Long story short... The first meetings were cordial and more like a "warm-up" to prepare my wife and me for their teaching. After a few Monday night meetings with the missionaries they popped up with how "God, the Father and Jesus, The Son," both appeared to Joseph Smith. The missionaries then told me that God said to Joseph Smith, "This is my beloved Son, here ye Him." Then they talked about how the angel Moroni revealed "truth" and guided Joseph to "golden tablets" that only Joseph could read through special glasses.
They talked about ancient tribes on the American continent and "spirit babies" that were waiting to be born in order to come into this world.

My wife, was an Atheist and quit attending the meetings after two sessions. She wanted nothing to do with any religion. I was still curious and wanting to learn. Here is the real kicker: The Mormon missionaries were so sure that I was ready to become a Mormon that they challenged me to "pray about it" and to ask God to show me how Mormonism was the "true religion." I now realize this is a psychological tactic used by liars who can be so bold in a statement that no one would challenge it and accept it as true.

I agreed that I would pray about the LDS Church being the "true church" and then the Mormon missionaries left for the evening. As I mentioned, I was desperately searching for God and wanted to know which church to join.
Through the week I prayed in earnest about what the Mormon missionaries had told me - about Joseph Smith being a prophet of God, LDS being the "true church", etc.

Then, within my thoughts, I was reminded of a scripture that I had once read:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)

My discernment was that while Joseph Smith could have seen the resurrected Lord Jesus, Smith could not have possibly seen the "personage" of God, the Father appearing as a second figure of a man. The New Testament makes it clear that we would be able to see Jesus in his resurrected body but does not state that man would personally see God, except through Jesus alone.

When the Mormon missionaries came back the following Monday night, the lead elder looked at me with a smile and said, "Well, did you pray about our church?" I replied, yes, I prayed about it. The missionary asked, "Good, what did God tell you?" I matter-of factly said, "God showed me that your church is NOT the true church."

Boy did that take them back in a startled surprise! The junior missionary was speechless and literally had a look of horror on his face. The elder was also speechless for a moment, gathered his composure and said, "Well, why don't you think we are the true church?" I then explained about my earnest prayer to God and how God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son could not both appear as two individual "personages" in human form because God was a Spirit and Jesus only could appear in His resurrected body.

They tried to make explanations but I stopped them at that point and said, no thanks, I think we need to stop our meetings at this time and confidently but courteously said that I no longer wished to meet with them.

Again, remember that at this time I had not yet been born-again but I was sincerely searching for Truth and God was Faithful. Praise Almighty God for His Love and Patience with a wretch like me. Amen.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Starman, I won't hijack this thread from Radiant1 so this will be all I say on that subject. This chair thing is just another in the long line of distractions from God. (The Mormons also believe in holy mormon underwear. Ridiculous, like this chair thing, but true)! I hope you can hear my frustration in my earlier post but again it isn't meant to sound mean. I was catholic until I got saved in 1989, then tried baptist for 7 years and then I said no more. I follow the Book and avoid ALL denominations. Too many people ahead of God. God bless you folks but I have to clean some dust off my sneakers.

 

[Starman3000m]

I follow the Book and avoid ALL denominations. Too many people ahead of God. God bless you folks but I have to clean some dust off my sneakers.

Ditto.

 

[Bavarian]

One does not know if they are saved until they stand before God in Judgement.
The Pope is infallible when speaking in matters of Faith and Morals. By "the chair" you snidely refer to, that refers to the chair of St. Peter the first Pope.

I would be very afraid if I was like those of you that were Catholic and left the Church. You will not be able to plead ignorance at Judgement. As for the other Ecclesiatical Communites you mention such as Mormon, and other protestants they are new entities that do not hold the Truth held by the original Church.

 

[Bavarian]

As for some fellow Catholics who post here. There is no need to backpedal on the Thruth just to curry favor with these Solo Scriptura people. No need to downplay the truth. For example, the Pope is infallible, the other bishops are here to carry out his directives.

 

[Radiant1]

As for some fellow Catholics who post here. There is no need to backpedal on the Thruth just to curry favor with these Solo Scriptura people. No need to downplay the truth. For example, the Pope is infallible, the other bishops are here to carry out his directives.

I can only assume you are referring to me, and I wasn't backpedaling. The Pope doesn't speak ex cathedra without having first conferred with the bishops.

The Sola Scriptura people you refer to are not the ones I wish to reach btw. I'll leave that to you, as you have a more beat them over the head and in your face style that they can relate to.

 

[Roughidle]

I'm always interested in debate, as the numbers of different religions and denominations make for much to discuss. However this thread(as well as many others)has degenerated into simple "My God can beat up your God" banter which is anti-productive to everyones spiritual health. It's far too judgemental and negative which does no one any good. Step back from the table, take a deep breath and let this thread die with some dignity. This really is a debate about liturgy, church doctrine and laws which could be very interesting if keep to a low intellegent roar.

 

[libby]

While I will defend the church and the Fullness of Truth whenever someone tries to slander her, I would refrain from assuming someone who left the church has truly and knowingly rejected that Truth.
Any Catholic who leaves the church was not actually taught well (free will notwithstanding), because her teachings are beautiful and they reinforce how great and loving our Christ is. When one does not know why the church teaches what she does, and that all of the doctrines concerning, for instance, the Blessed Mother, are actually Christocentric, then they are susceptible to any theology that comes along.
We (Catholics) can connect the historical and theological dots in our faith, but Bible Christians and other Christian denominations cannot.
The leaders of the RCC have not been inerrant, and that has led souls away. That is why it is critical that those outside the church know what is doctrine and what is discipline; what infallibility is, and what it is not; what we are required to believe and practice and what is merely an exercise in piety.
A Catholic who thinks he is "saved" just because he has checked all of the boxes is in just as much danger (IMO) as a Bible Christian who assumes "once saved, always saved". Starman and Italian are right insofar as they are insisting that a faith must be sincere, and with a heart trying to be pleasing to the Lord. All of Catholicisms doctrines/exercises that these men condemn are, indeed, futile, if done without a penitent heart.
It is my hope that sometime in their lives Italian and Starman will put their passion for Christ together with the Church Christ truly founded. And on the flip side, that those who are Catholic-in-name-only will see that going through the motions, without love, is also not the Will of God.

 

[ItalianScallion]

One does not know if they are saved until they stand before God in Judgement.

(1 John 5 v 13, 14, 15) Read it son and take your demonic teachings elsewhere.

I would be very afraid if I was like those of you that were Catholic and left the Church. You will not be able to plead ignorance at Judgement.

Your salvation is based on what the RCC says, thats why you are on shaky ground. The Bible says we can know. I KNOW I'M SAVED. Ask Jesus to save you and you'll see the light too and stop making unbiblical statements like the one above! NO ONE can plead ignorance on judgment day my friend! Wise up!

 

[Starman3000m]

One does not know if they are saved until they stand before God in Judgement.The Pope is infallible when speaking in matters of Faith and Morals.

Dear Bavarian, if the pope teaches that "One does not know if they are saved until they stand before God in Judgment" this actually proves that the pope is fallible and not learned nor trusting in the True Saving Grace of God.

The whole reason for Christ's Atoning Blood was for Salvation unto those who receive Him by faith and we can know that in the here and now! That is the neat thing about establishing a true, peaceful and loving relationship with God, our Father in Heaven.

There are many assurances of Salvation that Christ spoke about in the Holy Bible beginning with the process of placing faith in Him by which one is Born-Again.

With the trust you are placing in the pope and Vatican-led direction, are you sure that you will be saved? You can be sure just by trusting the Promise of God's Plan of Salvation and not the plan of man.

Assurance of Salvation

“… They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.” (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

“…We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true. And we are in Him who is true—even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the True God and eternal life. Dear children, keep yourselves from idols. (1 John 5:19-21)

 

[ItalianScallion]

A Catholic who thinks he is "saved" just because he has checked all of the boxes is in just as much danger (IMO) as a Bible Christian who assumes "once saved, always saved".

Please give me ALL the BIBLE verses to DISPROVE the "once saved always saved" doctrine of which the Bible clearly teaches. Thank you

It is my hope that sometime in their lives Italian and Starman will put their passion for Christ together with the Church Christ truly founded.

The word catholic means universal but it is not the church that Christ founded. His "universal" church is the entire body of people who would become His followers. Catholicism is just another denomination as is Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc. The "Church of Christ" denomination claims the same elite status as the RCC does. They also teach that if you don't follow their church you aren't saved. What say thou to that?

 

[ItalianScallion]

I'm always interested in debate, as the numbers of different religions and denominations make for much to discuss. However this thread(as well as many others)has degenerated into simple "My God can beat up your God" banter which is anti-productive to everyones spiritual health. It's far too judgemental and negative which does no one any good. Step back from the table, take a deep breath and let this thread die with some dignity. This really is a debate about liturgy, church doctrine and laws which could be very interesting if keep to a low intellegent roar.

I think it has become passionate not "judgmental". Too many people throw that word around without knowing it's Biblical meaning. This is a learning forum but some revert to name calling which, sadly, does turn it ugly. We are commanded by God to refute false doctrine and to teach others with the Word of God. As a Christian, I can't sit quietly by and allow the readers to think (or be misled to think) that these RCC doctrines are ALL correct. Many of them are, but some are not. If the readers think that Christians can't get along then so be it, but the church today is in the same boat as many other things in life are. The devil has confused many churches and people today and, just like finding a good doctor, we have to search dilligently for a healthy one that teaches the truth. So what a better place to learn than on a forum like this?

 

[libby]

Please give me ALL the BIBLE verses to DISPROVE the "once saved always saved" doctrine of which the Bible clearly teaches. Thank you

Before I do, I need to know your definition of OSAS.
Have you ever known anyone, or do you acknowledge that there are some people, who accepted Jesus (or at least, appeared to) who later walked away from the teachings of Jesus Christ?
What I'm trying to get at is whether or not you believe what an old friend of mine believes, which is this. If the aforementioned scenario did occur, that it would indicate that the person in question was never really saved in the first place.
Or, do you think a person can accept Jesus Christ as Lord, yet still be so riddled with their own weaknesses that they never grow any further towards Christ? Is there a difference between knowing/believing who He is and actually being "saved"?

 

[ItalianScallion]

Before I do, I need to know your definition of OSAS.

If someone is TRULY saved, they can never be lost. I'll give lots of verses later if you'd like.

Have you ever known anyone, or do you acknowledge that there are some people, who accepted Jesus (or at least, appeared to) who later walked away from the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Yes. Myself and a few others.

What I'm trying to get at is whether or not you believe what an old friend of mine believes, which is this. If the aforementioned scenario did occur, that it would indicate that the person in question was never really saved in the first place.

Exactly my belief. "The person in question was never really saved"... (Hebrews 6v4-6 and 1 John 2v19)

Or, do you think a person can accept Jesus Christ as Lord, yet still be so riddled with their own weaknesses that they never grow any further towards Christ?

That's a tough call for me. I wouldn't say "never grow" but maybe not grow much?? Unless they are at the end of their life, I could never understand how someone could "claim" to be saved and yet not grow and not want to serve God. When I really got saved I knew it. I immediately felt different and I had the urge to tell others about it. I asked Jesus into my life 4 times between 1972 & 1989 and only the last time (1989) did I get saved. How did I know? The first 3 times after I prayed to be saved, I went right back into my old lifestyle with no conscience guilt. So I really wasn't saved. I wasn't ready for the lifestyle change. I really didn't mean it when I asked Him in. He knew it, I didn't. When it did happen, it was immediate. For others, it's a journey. They need guidance & a close friend to show them the way or they'll fall back as I did 3 times.

Is there a difference between knowing/believing who He is and actually being "saved"?

Yes. The devil knows Jesus perfectly but he isn't saved. Many people know Jesus very well from the Bible but aren't saved. (Matthew 7v21-23). This is called a "head knowledge" but what we need is a "heart knowledge". A change of mind, heart & attitude. A serious evil is using the Bible verses about salvation, but then explaining a different Jesus (as the cult groups do). Paul warns us about this clearly.

 

[libby]

Okay,
I will get to my verses tomorrow, since it so late. But your response begs another question for which I've never gotten an answer from the old friend I mentioned.
If a person is never really saved in the first place, that means (and I'm paraphrasing the old friend I mentioned) that he/she never received that imprint of the Holy Spirit, never received God's saving grace, correct?
If that is so, and if we cannot be saved apart from God's grace, how did such an individual have a snowball's chance in you-know-where in the first place? If God did not really save a person because He knew they would turn away, that person never had His Grace from the get-go to help him along.
Doesn't it bother you that you thought you were saved, but in later years realized you were not? God forbid you encounter some unspeakable tragedy in your future and your faith fails you. Will you look back at today and say again that you were not truly saved, yet did not realize it?
As I proof read what I've written, it seems to go in a big, confusing circle. It makes sense to me because I know what I'm trying to say, but it may be completely fuzzy coming across the forum.
Do you understand my questions?

 

[Starman3000m]

Have you ever known anyone, or do you acknowledge that there are some people, who accepted Jesus (or at least, appeared to) who later walked away from the teachings of Jesus Christ?

The Holy Bible states that these are the people who had "appeared to have accepted Jesus" but in their heart they did not really place their faith in Him as Lord and Saviour. Many people recite liturgy and repeat canned prayers and "confessions of faith" only because it is what is expected of them at that time in order to please friends or family. God responds to the true, sincere confession of Faith in Jesus and God knows when such confession is sincere or not. Example:

(1 John 2:18-25)
18: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20: But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24: Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25: And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

What I'm trying to get at is whether or not you believe what an old friend of mine believes, which is this. If the aforementioned scenario did occur, that it would indicate that the person in question was never really saved in the first place.

Correct. As mentioned above, the individual who outwardly professes faith in Christ but has not inwardly really made the sincere decision of faith by truly accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour has not received God's Free Gift of Salvation. It's just that plain - By Faith we are Saved. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Or, do you think a person can accept Jesus Christ as Lord, yet still be so riddled with their own weaknesses that they never grow any further towards Christ? Is there a difference between knowing/believing who He is and actually being "saved"?

As ItalianScallion has previously mentioned, and I can also testify, people can have a false assurance that they are saved just because they follow religious teachings and traditions set forth by man.

On the other hand, when a person sincerely accepts Jesus Christ by faith, there is a spiritual awakening - a realization that brings the reality of God's Love and Peace closer than ever and then a new life begins to fluorish in wanting to know more and be as close to God as possible. The Holy Bible states that this is a "renewing of the mind" and a spiritual regeneration:

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:2)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)

The relationship we receive is that of adopted sons and daughters into the family of God. While we can still have trials and tribulations and may fall and stumble in defeat at times, we are able to bounce back through the presence of God's Holy Spirit dwelling within to guide us back on track. God's Promise is that He will never leave us nor forsake us. That is why Christ said that He would send the Holy Spirit from the Father to be our Comforter and teacher and whereby we are "sealed" unto Salvation.

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
(2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

You may have seen the bumper sticker slogan that reads, "Christians Are Not Perfect, They Are Forgiven" and that is true. God is ever patient with us and as the Spirit of God within us yearns to keep us in tune with God's Love. Yet, there are times when our human weakness fails in certain areas of our life. That does not mean that we lose our salvation. It means that we need to continue maturing in our relationship with God and allow His Spirit to control more of our lives instead of us being in control. The main thing to realize is that when we fail God, He is faithful and just to forgive us when we confess directly to Him with a sincere prayer of asking His forgiveness. We are not condemned but are reconciled and our walk with God continues on. If we sincerely believe that God can forgive our failures, (and He does) we must also learn to forgive ourselves or else self-guilt and self-condemnation may set in which can prevent a Child of God from experiencing the assuring comfort we receive through the Forgiveness of our Loving Father.

( from Romans, Chapter 8 )

1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[Starman3000m]

Okay,
I will get to my verses tomorrow, since it so late. But your response begs another question for which I've never gotten an answer from the old friend I mentioned.
If a person is never really saved in the first place, that means (and I'm paraphrasing the old friend I mentioned) that he/she never received that imprint of the Holy Spirit, never received God's saving grace, correct?
If that is so, and if we cannot be saved apart from God's grace, how did such an individual have a snowball's chance in you-know-where in the first place? If God did not really save a person because He knew they would turn away, that person never had His Grace from the get-go to help him along.
Doesn't it bother you that you thought you were saved, but in later years realized you were not? God forbid you encounter some unspeakable tragedy in your future and your faith fails you. Will you look back at today and say again that you were not truly saved, yet did not realize it?
As I proof read what I've written, it seems to go in a big, confusing circle. It makes sense to me because I know what I'm trying to say, but it may be completely fuzzy coming across the forum.
Do you understand my questions?

libby, God's Grace abounds unto all of mankind with His Offer to be Saved through the Atoning Blood of Christ. There are many reasons why people cannot and will not believe in God's Plan of Salvation but it boils down to the deception that has blinded mankind since the Beginning.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

We are also told that God does not want anyone to perish:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Yet, because of religious/spiritual deception or just plain choosing to love the world instead of choosing to love God an individual ends up not accepting the Offer that God had been making to them all along. That is the exercise of free-will.

God does not send people to hell, people choose not to go to heaven through the only way provided.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:16-21)

God Did For Mankind What Abraham Was Going To Do For God.