papal infallibility

[ItalianScallion]

If a person is never really saved in the first place, that means (and I'm paraphrasing the old friend I mentioned) that he/she never received that imprint of the Holy Spirit, never received God's saving grace, correct? If that is so, and if we cannot be saved apart from God's grace, how did such an individual have a snowball's chance in you-know-where in the first place? If God did not really save a person because He knew they would turn away, that person never had His Grace from the get-go to help him along.

(Hebrews 6 v 4-6) shows us that a person can "try on" Christianity for a time. That means they come under the influence of the Holy Spirit, but are not saved and if they don't like it they "fall away", "fall back" or "fall from grace" as Paul calls it. The bottom line is what you said: they were never "sealed" by the Holy Spirit and they didn't have that "rebirth or regeneration" that (Titus 3 v5-7) speaks of. If a person is going to be saved (at whatever time), nothing will ever happen to stop that from happening. If they're not going to be saved, nothing can make it happen. Otherwise God doesn't know everything and we know better than that don't we?

Doesn't it bother you that you thought you were saved, but in later years realized you were not?

I really didn't give any further thought as to whether I was saved or not until 1989 when I got saved. I was a young "player" and had everything going for me. As with most young people, I never thought of death while things were going so good. Now I thank God every night that He saved me. You should hear my testimony about the 4 times in my life that I was almost killed before I was saved. The perfect verse for this is in (1 John 2 v 19) where he says: "they went out from us but they did not belong to us, for if they did, they would have remained with us." Think of Judas. He was one of the 12, but he didn't remain with them.

God forbid you encounter some unspeakable tragedy in your future and your faith fails you. Will you look back at today and say again that you were not truly saved, yet did not realize it?

No. As I said earlier, I know I am saved and I know I can't be lost. That keeps me strong in the Lord. Does that give me a license to sin and do whatever I want? No again. I have had some REAL bad days as a Christian but I NEVER said "I no longer want this". Sure I had more fun before I was saved, but I'd never give up my salvation, even if I could, to go back to those days.

As I proof read what I've written, it seems to go in a big, confusing circle. It makes sense to me because I know what I'm trying to say, but it may be completely fuzzy coming across the forum.
Do you understand my questions?

Perfectly!

 

[libby]

This all sounds very much like the position that I adhere to as a Catholic, it is just a matter of semantics.
Of course, God knows the ultimate destiny of each of us, but he also desires the salvation of each of us. What I cannot reconcile about what you and Starman are saying (unless I've misunderstood) is that God's grace was never with the unsaved. I believe God offered His grace to those souls, but they rejected it. I believe that a good and loving God, who desires salvation for everyone will grant His grace to anyone who asks and is willing to receive it, even for a time. Because while He may know if we are going to fall away, we do not, and it is not in keeping with His Love to withold His help knowing that apart from it we are helpless.
As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8),

but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),

and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

I understand the difference between the time when we are young, and the time when we say, "Yikes, this really matters!" For me it was with the birth of my first child. As I held him in my arms I realized how much more important the supernatural is than the natural. How wonderful were God's ways, and how misguided were the ways of men.
However, I would not say I wasn't saved before then, because I really did not make a conscience choice to reject God, I just didn't know Him and His will. OTOH, I would also not assume I am saved now. While I pray daily for Him to keep me close, I am way too aware of my own weaknesses. While trying to fall asleep last night I was haunted by thoughts of losing one of my children. Naturally, my most fervent prayer was that this will never happen, but of equal concern was that I would not be so upset/angry with God that I walked away from Him in my pain. I think God would offer me His comfort in such a situation, but I might not accept it. Does that mean I never loved Him? No, because I can tell you right now that I love Him the most, I want to love Him the most, and I hope I always love Him the most.
But, what I think you are saying is that if I did walk away under such circumstances, then I wasn't really saved, which (my translation) means that God did not love me first, because He didn't give me that which I would need to endure the trials of life.
I think I prefer this conversation to the others we've been having.

 

[ItalianScallion]

What I cannot reconcile about what you and Starman are saying (unless I've misunderstood) is that God's grace was never with the unsaved. I believe God offered His grace to those souls, but they rejected it.

I didn't say that. I said quoting (Hebrews 6 v 4-6) that God allows people to "taste the heavenly gift". That includes the Holy Spirit, the goodness of the Word of God, God's power & His GRACE.

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13). However, I would not say I wasn't saved before then, because I really did not make a conscience choice to reject God, I just didn't know Him and His will. OTOH, I would also not assume I am saved now. But, what I think you are saying is that if I did walk away under such circumstances, then I wasn't really saved, which (my translation) means that God did not love me first, because He didn't give me that which I would need to endure the trials of life.

For some folks, salvation is a journey. I compare it (lightly) to test driving a car. You have access to all of it but it isn't yours until you choose to buy it. For others, like myself, I knew it completely when it happened because I had 3 other "dress rehersals"
God has to keep us saved beause we can't do it ourselves. We can't do enough good works anyway, because salvation is not based on how many good works we do. We have to make a conscious choice to acknowledge Jesus. We don't need a fancy prayer of conversion however. Remember the thief next to Jesus? His prayer was simply an acknowledgement of who Jesus is. If you're not sure you're saved now, you need to figure out what's causing your doubt. (1 John 5 v 13) says that we can "KNOW that we have eternal life". God doesn't want us to be unsure.
A great example of true salvation is David in (2 Samuel ch. 11&12). He did many terrible wrongs but his heart was still "pointed" towards God and he eventually repented. He committed adultery, lust, murder, etc., but God forgave him because he was one of the elect. He payed for his sins but he did return to God in the end. Salvation is the same way. We don't get saved then lost, then saved & lost. We get saved and, if our hearts & minds are pointed towards God, we will be forgiven when we sin. Now if ALL we do is sin after "claiming to be saved", (1 John 3v6) says: "no one who keeps on sinning has either seen Him or known Him". Yes, if you walk away from God and never come back, you probably were not saved. So Libby, why would you doubt your salvation? Did you actually ask Jesus to come into your life?

 

[Starman3000m]

Libby here is my response in two separate window posts. My original text is too long to post on one:

Part 1

This all sounds very much like the position that I adhere to as a Catholic, it is just a matter of semantics.
Of course, God knows the ultimate destiny of each of us, but he also desires the salvation of each of us. What I cannot reconcile about what you and Starman are saying (unless I've misunderstood) is that God's grace was never with the unsaved. I believe God offered His grace to those souls, but they rejected it.

Hi libby,
I think you may have misunderstood the part we have spoken of regarding God's Grace. The whole reason for Jesus Christ's Atonement is just exactly as the Holy Bible tells us. Here are just a few examples:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
(John 3:14-17)

and;

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (Romans 5:8-11)

This is more than God's Grace, libby, it is God's actual Offer for all of mankind to receive Salvation unto Eternal Life through no one else but Jesus Christ. God's Message to the world is to let people know that people cannot save themselves - they need a Saviour and that Saviour is His Son, Jesus Christ as stated in the New Testament. Note that the verse above states that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us..."That means that while people are yet "unsaved" they always have God's Grace abounding and calling them to repentance as mentioned in Scripture:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

God is extremely patient with the unsaved humanity in this world and He goes that extra mile with His patience in our own wayward ways that we take in life. Actually, there was a time when I even thought I was already saved just because I believed in God, went to church and thought I hadn't really been all "that bad". The only thing is...I really did not know God through a personal and spiritual relationship as what occurs when we are saved/born-again.

Also, the key action on anyone's part is the act of "repenting" which is turning away from the things in this world that keep us from seeking God and letting Him control our lives. Long story, short: I was fortunate to be given many opportunities to become "rich and famous" but each time I climbed the ladder I found that my achievements did not really make me happy. I felt an emptiness inside that material things just could not satisfy. At that time, I still sensed God's guidance but was given over to following the jet-set and assuming managerial positions of prestige just because I thought this is what society expected of me. As I reached the top of a promising career others saw me as a successful person but in reality my personal life was unhappy and my marriage was falling to pieces. I knew I needed to get my life straightened out with God and as mentioned in my testimony it was through His Divine Intervention that my wife and I were saved and our marriage kept together.

I believe that a good and loving God, who desires salvation for everyone will grant His grace to anyone who asks and is willing to receive it, even for a time. Because while He may know if we are going to fall away, we do not, and it is not in keeping with His Love to withold His help knowing that apart from it we are helpless.

The Holy Bible says that some people turn away because they willfully chose to reject God's Plan of Salvation and rather wanted to live in darkness. In essence, they have condemned their ownself

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:19-20)

Another way that people willfully do not receive God's Salvation is because they are religiously deceived by not trusting that Jesus' Atonement is what saves them. Instead, many are taught that they need to continue earning and meriting favor with God in order to be "saved". There are many many religions that say Jesus alone cannot save them. Here is what Jesus had to say on that matter in the Book of John, Chapter 10:

1: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber...
9: I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

A Promise is that God never turns anyone away when a person sincerely seeks Him:
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. (Proverbs 8:17)

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. (Jeremiah 29:13)

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (John 6:35-38)

 

[Starman3000m]

Part 2

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8),

In this scenario, it is the person who has already repented and accepted Christ through faith as personal Lord and Saviour. Yes, the person has received God's Promise of Salvation in the here and now through Christ's Atonement.

but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),

In the scenarios of 1 Cor. 1:8 and 2 Cor. 2:15, the person that has already received Salvation is "saved/spared" from God's Wrath on Judgment Day. There is no condemnation on that day of Judgment because Jesus is going to be your Mediator as mentioned in (Romans 8:1)

and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

It is more than "hope," libby, it is God's Assurance that you will be saved. The word "hope" in the Biblical text is not the same as "hoping you will be saved" it means the "Expectation" that God makes good on His Promise and He does, as mentioned in the following scripture:

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus 1:2)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

In this scenario, the saved person is "exhibiting" the fruits of his/her salvation as well as spiritually maturing steadily through the Grace of God. The individual is already saved (Jesus did that part) but now the person is living out the exemplery life of a Child of God. Paul's writings really hit the nail on the head when it comes to our daily walk with God and the struggles that we each have between the spirit and flesh. The ultimate goal is to allow God's Holy Spirit to be more in control of our lives as we draw closer to God. The Holy Bible references how we can actually quench and grieve the Holy Spirit through neglect, still saved, but not walking under the guidance of God's indwelling Holy Spirit as much as one should.

I understand the difference between the time when we are young, and the time when we say, "Yikes, this really matters!" For me it was with the birth of my first child. As I held him in my arms I realized how much more important the supernatural is than the natural.

Yes, it takes various events in our lives that bring us to the realization that our priorities need to be revised and our focus placed in things that do matter. That too is part of maturing, but at the human level. When there are things in our spiritual life that need fine tuning, God is faithful to remind us to stay focused on trusting Him in all matters.

How wonderful were God's ways, and how misguided were the ways of men.

Amen. And even now, in the present, how wonderful are God's ways and how misguided are the ways of men.
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. (Proverbs 3:5-6)

However, I would not say I wasn't saved before then, because I really did not make a conscience choice to reject God, I just didn't know Him and His will. OTOH, I would also not assume I am saved now.

There are many "neutral" people in this world; people who believe that God exists, have not made a conscious decision to reject Him, but also who have not committed their life to accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Saviour. According to the Holy Bible, a person is not saved until he/she turns from trusting the world and believes by faith that only Jesus can save them and that they cannot do anything on their own to merit or gain salvation. Jesus has always promised to give Eternal Life to those who come to Him.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

While I pray daily for Him to keep me close, I am way too aware of my own weaknesses. While trying to fall asleep last night I was haunted by thoughts of losing one of my children. Naturally, my most fervent prayer was that this will never happen, but of equal concern was that I would not be so upset/angry with God that I walked away from Him in my pain. I think God would offer me His comfort in such a situation, but I might not accept it. Does that mean I never loved Him? No, because I can tell you right now that I love Him the most, I want to love Him the most, and I hope I always love Him the most.

In your own words, libby, pray to God and share with Him what you have shared here. God's love for you offers the Comfort of Eternal Salvation and only God can give you the assurance within your spirit that you can become a Child of God through Faith in His only begotten Son. You can know that you are saved by trusting in God's Promise. Not only that, through your salvation your children can see and receive the same Salvation through Christ:

"...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
(Romans 8:15-17)

But, what I think you are saying is that if I did walk away under such circumstances, then I wasn't really saved, which (my translation) means that God did not love me first, because He didn't give me that which I would need to endure the trials of life.
I think I prefer this conversation to the others we've been having.

libby, God's Love abounds beyond what we can comprehend. Since there are so many scenarios of what goes on in every person's life, only God will understand his/her relationship with Him at the time that things go wrong and that may cause the person to "walk away." That does not mean that God does not love them or will not save them. On the contrary, God is ultra-patient and is willing to open His arms to receive any repentant individual when he/she comes to grips with their need for God. On the other hand, if a person willingly chooses to reject God outright and wants nothing to do with Him - then that person has willingly chosen to refuse God's Love and Offer of Salvation through Christ. Are there people like that? Yes, as mentioned earlier:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
(John 3:19)

God Does Not Send People To Hell; People Choose Not To Go To Heaven Through The Only Way Provided.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18)

Always good to talk things out, libby, and believe it or not, ItalianScallion and I love you and others in these discussions. Always open to answer more questions.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Hello friends. Sorry I haven't responded lately but my modem died and I have no internet access for a few more days. I am writing this from a friends dial up connection (AWFUL SLOW) so I hope to be back on by the weekend or sooner. Best wishes!

 

[ItalianScallion]

I'm back online. What an ordeal! It took 3 phone calls to get a person whom I could understand! OK Libby. your turn.

 

[brendar buhl]

What does any of this have to do wit Papal infallibility?

Calvinism teaches that once a person has been called by the Spirit he cannot resist following God. If the Holy Spirit works on the heart and mind of a man then that work will be effective unto salvation. In other words, the Holy Spirit cannot fail and the spirit of man (sinful nature) cannot prevail against it.

 

[Bavarian]

What does any of this have to do wit Papal infallibility?

Calvinism teaches that once a person has been called by the Spirit he cannot resist following God. If the Holy Spirit works on the heart and mind of a man then that work will be effective unto salvation. In other words, the Holy Spirit cannot fail and the spirit of man (sinful nature) cannot prevail against it.

Calvinism is heresy.

 

[brendar buhl]

Calvinism is heresy.

Of course it is, the Pope said so...and he's infallible.

 

[libby]

Hey Starman and Italian,
My turn, eh? Well, I honestly don't have any disagreement with recent posts. I think we believe the same thing in large part, we are just calling it by different names. Our disputes come in other matters.
But, I've been thinking about Luke 16, the rich man and Lazarus, which was our Gospel reading last Sunday.
I'm curious. What is supposed to be going on here besides the obvious? For instance, I am assuming the bosom of Abraham is not Heaven because Jesus has not yet died (hmmm..come to think of it, was this a parable, or a real event Jesus was sharing?). But, the other thing that I wonder about is when Abraham says to the rich man that there is a great chasm preventing anyone from crossing, either from the fire to Abe, or vice versa. Now, who would WANT to cross from the bosom of Abe into the torment the rich man was enduring?
And was the rich man even in hell?? I imagine hell as being a place completely devoid of any love, yet the rich man exhibits a love/concern for his brothers, and he want to warn them.
What do you guys think?

 

[Starman3000m]

Hey Starman and Italian,
My turn, eh? Well, I honestly don't have any disagreement with recent posts. I think we believe the same thing in large part, we are just calling it by different names. Our disputes come in other matters.
But, I've been thinking about Luke 16, the rich man and Lazarus, which was our Gospel reading last Sunday.
I'm curious. What is supposed to be going on here besides the obvious? For instance, I am assuming the bosom of Abraham is not Heaven because Jesus has not yet died (hmmm..come to think of it, was this a parable, or a real event Jesus was sharing?). But, the other thing that I wonder about is when Abraham says to the rich man that there is a great chasm preventing anyone from crossing, either from the fire to Abe, or vice versa. Now, who would WANT to cross from the bosom of Abe into the torment the rich man was enduring?
And was the rich man even in hell?? I imagine hell as being a place completely devoid of any love, yet the rich man exhibits a love/concern for his brothers, and he want to warn them.
What do you guys think?

Hi libby, thank you for your comments. I believe we have each stated our doctrinal positions sufficiently enough so thanks for the change of pace and opportunity to respond to your question about Jesus' Parable of
(Luke 16:19-31) I guess the best way to give an opinion is to analyze the parable - so here goes:

Luke 16:

19: There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21: And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Clearly, here is the great contrast between an extremely rich and free- spirited rich man and a humble poor man begging at the rich man's doorstep each day for self-survival. In his physically distraught condition no one comes to his aid to assist him with medical help except for "man's best friend", dogs, whose saliva gave a temporary remedy for the sores on his body. It is also to be understood in this scripture that Lazarus was not a poor, hateful and ungrateful ol' cuss but a downright good-hearted and faithful man totally down on his luck upon this earth.

22: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

When both men die, the soul of each is then sent to the respective eternal destiny just like everyone else will be and as stated in the following scripture:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(Hebrews 9:27-28)

We see that Lazarus' soul is carried by angels to the "comfort" of Abraham's bosom which is the promised reward of those who live by faith:
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.(Galatians 3:9)

23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24: And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Verse 22 states that the rich man is buried and wakes up in hell where he becomes aware being in a state of torment - not peace. In the distance the rich man finally acknowledges Abraham, calling him "Father" yet during his life on earth the rich man did not give Abraham such recognition nor acknowledgment - he now begs for mercy but it is too late. His chance for mercy was to have been requested before he died and passed on. In his anguish and torment, the rich man asks for some kind of slight reprieve and as he sees Lazarus standing with Abraham he concedes to ask for help by asking Abraham to send Lazarus into the tormenting environment if even with a bit of water to cool his tongue, which must have profaned and denied God while he was alive. Either way, the rich man totally ignored the needs of the begging Lazarus. Remember that while Lazarus was alive the saliva of dogs gave a temporary reprieve of his sores - think there is now a possible parallel to the rich man asking for a cooling off reprieve???

25: But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Self explanatory. The intent is to show that each lived completely contrasting lives - one of great wealth and one of complete poverty. One rich in material things but poor in spirit and the other poor in material things but rich in the faith and Spirit of God. Thus, the reason for Christ's words:

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
(Matthew 6:19-21)

26: And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Abraham tells the rich man that there is a "spiritual divide" that is so fixed that souls from either side cannot cross over to each other's side - so the rich man's request was denied as Abraham could not send Lazarus to rescue the rich man if even through a temporary reprieve from torment.

27: Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

The rich man finally realizes that his eternal destiny has been sealed in hell and, wishing that others of his (presumeably rich) family do not meet the same fate, the rich man then asks Abraham to send Lazarus to them instead and to warn them of the peril that awaits them.

29: Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Self explanatory; Thus the reason for the following scripture:
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) ( 2 Corinthians 6:2)

Salvation through Christ is preached unto this world. It is for the people in this world to accept God's Plan of Salvation when they hear it in the here and now - or they can just continue to mock and/or ignore the Call of God and go about their own wayward ways believing they don't need a saviour. And yet another reason for Jesus to have spoken the following words to his Disciples:

Jesus saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! (Mark 10:24)

30: And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31: And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Self-explanatory. The New Testament gives an account where Christ raised another man called Lazarus from the dead. Many believed then but many, especially religious leaders, made every effort to cover it up in denial and to accuse Jesus of being a fraud for fear that Jesus' fame would replace their authority with the people. (John 11:43-55)

So, in this case, even when one was actually brought back from the dead as testimony to the miracles of God, the religious leaders would still deny the complete authority and power of Jesus as they do today so as not to lose control of the congregants that they lord over.

Just think if every religious leader said - "You don't need to go to church to find Salvation; you need to go to Jesus!"

"I Am The Way, The Truth And The Life; No Man Can Come Unto The Father Except Through Me." (John 14:6)

 

[ItalianScallion]

...I am assuming the bosom of Abraham is not Heaven because Jesus has not yet died (hmmm..come to think of it, was this a parable, or a real event Jesus was sharing?). But, the other thing that I wonder about is when Abraham says to the rich man that there is a great chasm preventing anyone from crossing, either from the fire to Abe, or vice versa. Now, who would WANT to cross from the bosom of Abe into the torment the rich man was enduring?
And was the rich man even in hell?? I imagine hell as being a place completely devoid of any love, yet the rich man exhibits a love/concern for his brothers, and he want to warn them.

Very good response Starman and hello again Libby. In the old testament, Christ had not yet died so no one had direct access to heaven. There was a place the Bible calls Hades which had 2 compartments or rooms. One for the believers (Abraham's side) and one for the unbelievers. Although the dark side of hades is not the actual lake of fire (Hell), it is VERY similar to it. That's where the rich man was. How do we know it isn't hell? (Rev 20 v 14) death & hades were thrown into the lake of fire. You can't cast hell into hell. Many OT verses say that the OT believers went to their rest at Abrahams side. The NT states that believers go directly to be with the Lord when they die. And you're right, no one in heaven would want to cross over to hell but those in hell always want to cross over to heaven. I don't think hell is devoid of any love, I believe that everyone in hell is suffering so much that even the most hateful of them realized the error of their ways. I've always said there are no unbelievers in hell. That doesn't mean that believers went there, it means that after the unbelievers got there they realized that God's word was true after all but it was too late to change. So from this parable alone we can see that there is no chance of "getting prayed out of hades". What a persons status is when they die, is what it will be for all eternity. One HAS TO make the choice while they are alive; smoking or non? I really don't know if this was a true story or just a one time event that God allowed. I don't know if anyone from heaven can see hell or vice-versa. I think Jesus used this as a teaching parable to reinforce the OT law & prophets truths and to let people know that hell is a real and highly undesireable place.

 

[Starman3000m]

Thanks, ItalianScallion, glad you were able to get your modem fixed. I may be off line for the next few days as my wife and I have a vacation week to use and may not have the time nor opportunity to post much this week. Keep up the good work and may God Bless you and yours.