Plane Crash outside Lexington Kentucky

[chess]

Plane crash 1 survivor

 

[AndyMarquisLIVE]

Possibly took off wrong runway - they don't know which runway it took off from.

Another question has been how have so many people died. Very sad.

 

[Bustem' Down]

My mom flies for ComAir. She's knew the pilot. Evidently the runway was too short, so it was ground control who made the mistake.

There have been accidents like this before, and the reason so many die in them is because of fire. I gaurantee that probably 80% of the deaths were the result of fire.

 

[oldman]

My mom flies for ComAir. She's knew the pilot. Evidently the runway was too short, so it was ground control who made the mistake.

There have been accidents like this before, and the reason so many die in them is because of fire. I gaurantee that probably 80% of the deaths were the result of fire.

The pilot is from the next town over from my hometown in South N.J..

 

[Ken King]

Evidently the runway was too short, so it was ground control who made the mistake.

Okay, maybe they could have done something else, but remember the ultimate responsibility is with the pilot in command and so far the evidence is that he was cleared to take off Runway 22. Instead the pilot turns the plane onto unlit Runway 26 and attempts to take off. If there were no other aircraft moving about the airfield why would Ground Control have needed to talk anymore than clearing the aircraft to hold short, position and hold or clear for take-off?

 

[Bustem' Down]

Okay, maybe they could have done something else, but remember the ultimate responsibility is with the pilot in command and so far the evidence is that he was cleared to take off Runway 22. Instead the pilot turns the plane onto unlit Runway 26 and attempts to take off. If there were no other aircraft moving about the airfield why would Ground Control have needed to talk anymore than clearing the aircraft to hold short, position and hold or clear for take-off?

I don't know. I'm no expert on air traffic control, so I just have to go on what I'm told. Sure, the pilot take ultimate responsibility. She something about the runways not being marked or something, and I read something about them being newly paved. Maybe this had something to do with it, I don't know.

 

[Pete]

Runways are numbered according to their heading. Runway 26 is 260 degrees, runway 22 is 220 degrees. Even without a number if cleared on 26 but your HSI says 220 you are pointing the wrong way to take off on 26.

 

[Larry Gude]

It was dark and misty...

...and I'll bet the voice recorder shows the pilots checking off that they are on the correct runway.

There are numerous examples of one person reading off the check list and the other person saying 'check' and then the NTSB finds that the flaps were not in the position the pilots said they were on the recorder, that the de-icer was off and not on, so on and so forth.

I think they just missed it, human error. They, the pilot and co pilot, probably did not have alot of flights into this particular airfield.

Surfing around, it seems Bombardier says the plane needed at least 6,000 feet and, of interest, it seems there are boards on runways that tell the pilots how much runway is left, 3 = 3,000 feet, 4 = 4,000 feet etc, in order to make a go/no go call. I found questions from pilots as to whether these signs were taken down and/or put back properly during the re-surfacing that apparently took place a day or two before. Also, it seems there was a very heavy down pour right before they took off and speculation as to if this caused them to miss signs.

We'll know soon. Sucks no matter what happened.

 

[Larry Gude]

I guess there is...

Runways are numbered according to their heading. Runway 26 is 260 degrees, runway 22 is 220 degrees. Even without a number if cleared on 26 but your HSI says 220 you are pointing the wrong way to take off on 26.

...a checklist item to verify heading compared to the runway they think they're on?

And I bet we'll hear that someone said '22' and the other said 'check'.

 

[Pete]

...and I'll bet the voice recorder shows the pilots checking off that they are on the correct runway.

There are numerous examples of one person reading off the check list and the other person saying 'check' and then the NTSB finds that the flaps were not in the position the pilots said they were on the recorder, that the de-icer was off and not on, so on and so forth.

I think they just missed it, human error. They, the pilot and co pilot, probably did not have alot of flights into this particular airfield.

Surfing around, it seems Bombardier says the plane needed at least 6,000 feet and, of interest, it seems there are boards on runways that tell the pilots how much runway is left, 3 = 3,000 feet, 4 = 4,000 feet etc, in order to make a go/no go call. I found questions from pilots as to whether these signs were taken down and/or put back properly during the re-surfacing that apparently took place a day or two before. Also, it seems there was a very heavy down pour right before they took off and speculation as to if this caused them to miss signs.

We'll know soon. Sucks no matter what happened.

There are markers, they also have a "refusal point" in which they can abort the take off and still have runway enough to stop calculated on A/C weight and stopping parameters. They also have a "rotate" speed that is calculated based on weight of the A/C. In this case if they were cooking down the runway and realized they were going to run out of runway chances they still could not have stopped in time and would have run off the end and crashed even if they were under "refusal speed".

6,000 feet is a LONG way for that plane to roll. Seems kinda odd to me.

 

[MMDad]

They, the pilot and co pilot, probably did not have alot of flights into this particular airfield.

I found questions from pilots as to whether these signs were taken down and/or put back properly during the re-surfacing that apparently took place a day or two before.

I'm thinking these pilots has enough experience at this airport to be complacent. They simply didn't pay attention to the signs or the massive number 26 at the end of the runway.

I saw a picture of the runway, and the signs were in place.

 

[Pete]

...a checklist item to verify heading compared to the runway they think they're on?

And I bet we'll hear that someone said '22' and the other said 'check'.

Generally there is a call of "heading" and a reply. 22 being phonetically similar to 26 they probably gomered it. If it wasn't dark it would probably have never happened. I would assume they were disoriented for some reason.

When they rolled up to the end I bet they were ripping the yoke out of the floor pulling back.

 

[Larry Gude]

Not good...

I'm thinking these pilots has enough experience at this airport to be complacent. They simply didn't pay attention to the signs or the massive number 26 at the end of the runway.

I saw a picture of the runway, and the signs were in place.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/08/28/D8JPIVS80.html

Lowell Wiley, a flight instructor who flies almost daily from Lexington, said he was confused by the redirected taxi route when he was with a student taking off from the main runway Friday.

Pilots encountered problems with the runway layout at Lexington's airport in the past, as well.

"Aircraft was cleared for immediate takeoff (traffic was inside the marker) on runway 22 at KLEX. We taxied onto the runway and told tower we needed a moment to check our departure routing with our weather radar (storms were in the area, raining at the airport). We realized our heading was not currect for our assigned runway and at that moment, tower called us to cancel the takeoff clearance because we were lined up on runway 26."

 

[Larry Gude]

That effing....

Generally there is a call of "heading" and a reply. 22 being phonetically similar to 26 they probably gomered it. If it wasn't dark it would probably have never happened. I would assume they were disoriented for some reason.

When they rolled up to the end I bet they were ripping the yoke out of the floor pulling back.

...SUX!

Is the board thing showing room left correct? Do you think they recognized they were running out of room and chose to go for it or did they miss the boards?

 

[MMDad]

...SUX!

Is the board thing showing room left correct? Do you think they recognized they were running out of room and chose to go for it or did they miss the boards?

Yes, the board thing is correct. If you don't know there's a problem, the boards won't register until it's too late. They have a decision speed, last chance to abort takeoff, but it's based on runway length so it wouldn't help here. They probably never made it up to that speed before they realized they were screwed.

I would be surprised if they even had time to figure out their mistake.

I wouldn't want to be that co-pilot, being the only survivor but responsible for killing 48.

 

[Pete]

...SUX!

Is the board thing showing room left correct? Do you think they recognized they were running out of room and chose to go for it or did they miss the boards?

Oh I am sure they knew they were running out of runway beside the boards the lights at the end are different color. Problem is if they calculated refusal speed for a 7,000 foot runway, they would not have room to stop on a 3500 foot runway even if they had not reached refusal speed yet. I would think they realized they were screwed and had to make a quick decision; Slam on the brakes and run off the end and crash hard for sure -or- keep rolling and rotate early and pray it climbed.

Crew coordination is key as well. Typically one guy's eyes are on the instruments, especially at night, calling out ground speed, the other guy is watching the runway. There is a good chance the guy watching the gauges never looked out and realized WTF was going on.

 

[Larry Gude]

I wonder about that...

Oh I am sure they knew they were running out of runway beside the boards the lights at the end are different color. Problem is if they calculated refusal speed for a 7,000 foot runway, they would not have room to stop on a 3500 foot runway even if they had not reached refusal speed yet. I would think they realized they were screwed and had to make a quick decision; Slam on the brakes and run off the end and crash hard for sure -or- keep rolling and rotate early and pray it climbed.
Crew coordination is key as well. Typically one guy's eyes are on the instruments, especially at night, calling out ground speed, the other guy is watching the runway. There is a good chance the guy watching the gauges never looked out and realized WTF was going on.

...does the light color change at the end of runways signal the last chance to stop or once they see that it's too late anyway?

In other words, if I understand you, as part of their checklist before they hit the gas, they have a number they've determined as their refusal speed, which would be a speed they must reach by X distance on a runway of Y overall length, to leave enough room to stop if they decide to abort. That right?

So, if the boards are their lifeline, so to speak, in making up their mind on go/abort, did they mess up by not watching early enough or would the routine on what they thought was a longer runway be to look later on down the runway, too late on that runway, anyway?

I'm just imagining the instant someone recognized they were running out of room. I know it's not so simple but they know what they gotta have to get off the ground and if they weren't there, did they ALSO screw up by not aborting and taking their chances on running off the runway not being as bad as not being able to get airborne which they had to know they couldn't pull off.

Finally, if all that's pretty much likely, I wonder if they made the choice based on panic or choosing a slim hope of getting up and over not having to deal with getting in trouble for running off the end.

This stuff fascinates me.

 

[MMDad]

I'm just imagining the instant someone recognized they were running out of room. I know it's not so simple but they know what they gotta have to get off the ground and if they weren't there, did they ALSO screw up by not aborting and taking their chances on running off the runway not being as bad as not being able to get airborne which they had to know they couldn't pull off.

Here's an article that explains some of these things. Looks like if the had 50 feet more, they would have made it.
Article

 

[chernmax]

Here's an article that explains some of these things. Looks like if the had 50 feet more, they would have made it.
Article

Or a smaller plane...

 

[Pete]

...does the light color change at the end of runways signal the last chance to stop or once they see that it's too late anyway?

The lights are a different color, they don't change color. I read somewhere that the runway lights were not on in this case which is odd.

In other words, if I understand you, as part of their checklist before they hit the gas, they have a number they've determined as their refusal speed, which would be a speed they must reach by X distance on a runway of Y overall length, to leave enough room to stop if they decide to abort. That right?

Correct. It is calculated based on A/C weight, humidity, baro press, OAT, field elevation. The point moves up or down the runway as these things vary. One day it may be 3700 the next day might be 4000. Same with rotate speed.

So, if the boards are their lifeline, so to speak, in making up their mind on go/abort, did they mess up by not watching early enough or would the routine on what they thought was a longer runway be to look later on down the runway, too late on that runway, anyway?

Well it is pure speculation but since 26 is half the distance of 22 and it was dark I doubt they noticed until it was too late.

I'm just imagining the instant someone recognized they were running out of room. I know it's not so simple but they know what they gotta have to get off the ground and if they weren't there, did they ALSO screw up by not aborting and taking their chances on running off the runway not being as bad as not being able to get airborne which they had to know they couldn't pull off.

I imagine it smelled like poo in the cockpit when they realized. Problem is refusal point on a 3500 foot runway is way back near the beginning end of the roll and the rotate point is 1500 feet into the dirt.

It was no doubt quite baffling to the cockpit crew. Rolling...making speed.....passing refusal......oh shiat why is the end so close? It was that instant that the captain knew beyond a shadow of a doubt he was well past the refusal point (actual for what he was seeing out the window, not what they "thought" it was), yet was well short of attaining rotate speed. He no doubt knew he could not stop, would scream off the runway and crash with a full bag of fuel. If he was "close" to rotate speed he may have elected to rotate early and reduce the climb rate in hopes he would continue to accelerate once airborne and everything would be ok.

Finally, if all that's pretty much likely, I wonder if they made the choice based on panic or choosing a slim hope of getting up and over not having to deal with getting in trouble for running off the end.

This stuff fascinates me.

I think they weighed the options, try to stop (impossible) and crash (certain) vs. rotate early and hope we clear the trees.