Prayers

[JPC sr]

Batman

You're splitting hairs here. The context of this discussion is about prayer and what is expected from that prayer.

Yes I am splitting hairs but if anyone wants to get some where then they have to nit pick at the words.

The poster said he wanted to understand and I feel that demands an answer from me.

You wrote "... means do it and not pray about it." Now you are saying "... must make their prayer in action and not just words." Well, do we pray or not? I don't think anyone disagrees we must have action reflective of our faith, but I was responding to your other claim that we were not to pray but to just act.

It is a two edged sword that works both ways.

The vain and selfish prayers do work much of the time as it is just a quickly done and over request anyway in most cases.

I find that many if not most people preach prayer without action as their only way. Churches do that all the time and preachers on TV too. They all need to be told that is dead wrong. Faith without works is dead, and prayer without works is worthless whether answered or not.

I know what you're trying to say but you are doing it rather poorly and it seems just for the sake of debate.

Not for the sake of arguing but I would conceed that my methods of telling might be poorly done.

 

[hvp05]

You're splitting hairs here.

His position will change as necessary for every post.

I prayed hard for my aunt to recover from her cancer.

That was the example I was going to raise. How does the position, "If anyone wants it and wants God's help then start doing it thy self," work with something like an illness?

 

[Starman3000m]

Yes I am splitting hairs but if anyone wants to get some where then they have to nit pick at the words.

The poster said he wanted to understand and I feel that demands an answer from me. It is a two edged sword that works both ways.

The vain and selfish prayers do work much of the time as it is just a quickly done and over request anyway in most cases.

I find that many if not most people preach prayer without action as their only way. Churches do that all the time and preachers on TV too. They all need to be told that is dead wrong. Faith without works is dead, and prayer without works is worthless whether answered or not.
Not for the sake of arguing but I would conceed that my methods of telling might be poorly done.

Hi JPC sr,

Since we are on the subject of prayer, I want to say that you and Knucklesack are still in my prayers - hoping that you will both be open to seeking the Truth about who God really is.* It took a Divine Intervention in my life to help me comprehend that Jesus Christ of the New Testament is truly The Son of God whose shed Blood atones for the sins of those who place faith upon Him as personal Lord and Saviour. Additonally, our salvation is a Free Gift of God through faith in God's Plan of Salvation through Jesus:

(Ephesians Chapter 2)

4: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6: And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Christ's sacrifice upon the cross had to be; it is God's Plan of Salvation whereby God Did For Mankind what Abraham Was Going To Do For God.

By contrast, the Islamic God, Al'lah, demands Muslims to gain their own salvation through personal "works" and even then Muslims are still not guaranteed paradise because, according to Islamic theology, Al'lah and an angel have already selected which Muslim will be a denizen of the hell-fire and which Muslim will be rewarded with paradise. Also, Muhammad did state that the only sure way to "attain paradise" was to die as a martyr for Al'lah and that is why so many Muslim men and women are honestly sincere in their "martyrdom" believing that they are doing a service for Al'lah while believing it will ensure his/her salvation.

"The Prophet said, 'The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr).'" (Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35: Narrated Abu Huraira)

You quote Bible scripture (James 2:20, 26) regarding "faith without works is dead".

I tell you this truth, when Islamic martyrs practice their "faith through works" they are dead!

* My wife, Diane, is a very intelligent, college educated woman and, as stated on another thread, was an Atheist when we got married many years ago. As an Atheist she totally and willfully dismissed any possible existence of a Creator God and accepted the "theory of Evolution." However, Diane has mentioned that no matter how much she had tried to deny God's existence there was always a lingering thought that she would have to push out of her mind and that thought was " what if there really is a God?"

I wonder if any other Atheists have encountered that lingering thought while placing their faith in the scientific explanation of Creation.

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. (Psalm 19:1)

You are in my prayers.

 

[Kain99]

All prayers are answered! Some with a Yes, some with a not yet and some with a no.

We are not left alone.

 

[PsyOps]

The vain and selfish prayers do work much of the time as it is just a quickly done and over request anyway in most cases.

Once again you are deciding what is vain and selfish. You really believe you know peoples' hearts that well?

Have you ever considered it's about God's will, not about whether it works or not? "Okay, I prayed to God, let's see if it works... Nope, not this time... Let's try again... Nope. How about if I ask differently...". God always works; not sometimes; ALWAYS.

 

[PsyOps]

His position will change as necessary for every post.

That was the example I was going to raise. How does the position, "If anyone wants it and wants God's help then start doing it thy self," work with something like an illness?

JPC's assertion about peoples' selfishness and vanity in prayer is just plain wrong. I can't speak for others but I rarely pray for things for myself. When I ask for something from God for myself it's usually things like peace in my heart, spiritual strength, wisdom, etc... I might ask for safety or focus when applying for a job but I typically pray for others that are much larger need than me.

In reality the belief in God has a central and personal purpose and that is to obtain eternity in heaven... Given JPC's mentality towards the motives of Christians, this can be distorted as selfish and vain as well.

 

[JPC sr]

Batman

JPC's assertion about peoples' selfishness and vanity in prayer is just plain wrong. I can't speak for others but I rarely pray for things for myself.

Praying for other can still be selfish and vain.

The idea is to teach and preach to others particularly through example.

Why would we pray for God to deliver some person (ourself or others) from an addiction or a destructive situation when God has already told each of us to do it ourselves?

He has already told us all the way and already showed us all the way and all one has to do is believe and do it.

Words are fine but the words are not enough for us.

When I ask for something from God for myself it's usually things like peace in my heart, spiritual strength, wisdom, etc... I might ask for safety or focus when applying for a job but I typically pray for others that are much larger need than me.

And God answers those prayers but they are worthless without putting them into actions.

I have known people that seem to know it all and have great faith but they did not put it into actions and so their greatness meant nothing.

In reality the belief in God has a central and personal purpose and that is to obtain eternity in heaven... Given JPC's mentality towards the motives of Christians, this can be distorted as selfish and vain as well.

You are correct that the concept of going to Heaven after death is the ultimate selfishness and vanity.

It seems amazing to me that false belief still continues.

And the lie of the opponents burning in Hell is a pitiful un-Christ concept too.

The message was "thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven" so it is to come here and not us go there.

The best I can tell about the concept of going to Heaven after death is to reinforce the do nothing now idea.

Those that do nothing now would be the least wanted in a Heaven.

The prayer without action is the same do nothing concept like :

God help us or God help them because we sure are not going to help them or to help one self.

and or :

Please God help us because we are going to do nothing ourselves.

Faith without works is dead, and prayer without action is worthless.

 

[Toxick]

Praying for other can still be selfish and vain.

Whatever.


Off topic: WTF is up with "Batman" on all your posts now?

Do you, by chance, think you're Batman?

The idea is to teach and preach to others particularly through example.

This post certainly is glistening with comic irony.

....God has already told each of us to do it ourselves?

This from the man who has dedicated the past few years of his life to shifting two parents' responsibilities onto a single parent (and/or a stepparent) or the government (i.e. the taxpayers), and declaring that personal responsibility is, at best, an oppresive concept.

Faith without works is dead, and prayer without action is worthless.

JPC I'll give you one thing. You're nothing if not an endless source of bewilderment and amazement.



I have decided to believe that you are one of the cleverest GOP trolls that has ever existed, and I think I'll be much happier from here on out.

 

[JPC sr]

Batman

Whatever.


Off topic: WTF is up with "Batman" on all your posts now?

Do you, by chance, think you're Batman?

Some poster called me "Batman" and I liked it, link HERE.

But no, I do not think that I am the caped crusader, link HERE.

 

[PsyOps]

Praying for other can still be selfish and vain.

The idea is to teach and preach to others particularly through example.

Why would we pray for God to deliver some person (ourself or others) from an addiction or a destructive situation when God has already told each of us to do it ourselves?

He has already told us all the way and already showed us all the way and all one has to do is believe and do it.

Words are fine but the words are not enough for us. And God answers those prayers but they are worthless without putting them into actions.

I have known people that seem to know it all and have great faith but they did not put it into actions and so their greatness meant nothing. You are correct that the concept of going to Heaven after death is the ultimate selfishness and vanity.

It seems amazing to me that false belief still continues.

And the lie of the opponents burning in Hell is a pitiful un-Christ concept too.

The message was "thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven" so it is to come here and not us go there.

The best I can tell about the concept of going to Heaven after death is to reinforce the do nothing now idea.

Those that do nothing now would be the least wanted in a Heaven.

The prayer without action is the same do nothing concept like :

God help us or God help them because we sure are not going to help them or to help one self.

and or :

Please God help us because we are going to do nothing ourselves.

Faith without works is dead, and prayer without action is worthless.

JPC, you are so far off track that I don't even know how to respond to you anymore.

You don't believe there's a hell. Even though there are a multitude of references to it in the Bible.

You believe EVERYONE receives salvation, even though there are a multitude of references in the Bible stating you must believe in order to obtain salvation and avoid going to hell.

You believe prayer is vain and selfish even though Jesus and his desciples prayed often, making them vain and selfish.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you...... :shrug:

 

[JPC sr]

Batman

JPC, you are so far off track that I don't even know how to respond to you anymore.

Well a poster ask a straight out question and I give a straight out answer even if others do not like it.

You don't believe there's a hell. Even though there are a multitude of references to it in the Bible.

It is like so many people pray for Godly knowledge and yet it is so very much available that all one has to do is seek the truth and it will almost virtually fall into our laps because it is as simple as a scholar research book on the Bible. But no, people want knowledge without doing anything to get it.

The words in the Bible used for "hell" meant grave and dump heap but it was the Greek word "Hades" that comes from the Greek religion that had the God named Hades that tortured people in a firey hell.

Jesus was not a "Hellenist".

To cling to that nonsense of a firey hell means Christ did not forgive them and that Christ is conditional and it is not correct.

You believe EVERYONE receives salvation, even though there are a multitude of references in the Bible stating you must believe in order to obtain salvation and avoid going to hell.

Jesus said to "be ye perfect" and so long as anyone clings to the old fables then you shall stay blind, link HERE.

You believe prayer is vain and selfish even though Jesus and his desciples prayed often, making them vain and selfish.

No, I am saying to make the prayer real by putting the action behind it.

If one prays for health and gets it - then what?

Nothing but vain selfish health unless it has some rightful action that goes with the prayer.

So I am not telling people not to pray in their own way - by all means go ahead, but if anyone wants better then they have to do more.